The grade table on Climb ZA has been amended (for the better)
Please check it out, as it differs by a grade (or two) from what was previously there or what many might have previously been used to.
The idea is to once and for all finalise the SA grade table

Any objections, post it here or mail us and we'll... think about it

- Sport Climbing Route Grade Converstion Table

- Boulder Grade Conversion Table

you kats are gonna piss off old man fantini with such a divergence from his aussie ways... he sandbagged ya fer a reason, now your inflating your numbers, shame.

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to air is human....

Jeez Markis?!!! Much more accurate guys! Still a bit simplified as the grades at french crags seemed to vary rather drastically from crag to crag. Theyre softer graded crags are about what you suggest, but the stiffer sites are closer to the Aussie grades. (At least in my limited experience of grades 15-23) The simplification works tho, especially for visitors doing the conversion.

How does this affect the grade of a route? If a route is a 16, does the change affect this? Is it still seen as a 16, or is it now a 17? Will all routes affected by this have to have its grade updated?

Referring to the point about Auzzie grades - we have ALWAYS been a grade out from grade 19.

I proposed the changes to the grade table (Justin left my name out in case the usual slander started). What I was trying to do, was to exactly align our grades to the French grade, thereby making the French grades redundant. The situation was very confusing, with grades 21 - 26 half a grade out from alignment with the French grades, with the result that 26 covered 1 1/2 French grades half of 7a+ and all of 7b (the same thing happened at 28 and 29).

If people accept this new conversion table, then we can regrade one or two routes (eg A Gift of Wings will become 29 because it is 7c+) and just use the SA grade, ie none of this 29/7c+ stuff.

sorry, deleted my post after i realised how old the initial one was. how did i end up there anyways...

The new grading table looks schweet. Wherever you go there will be discrepencies between numbers - it doesn't really matter. And let the foreigners come on over and appreciate our simple grading system, beer, boerewors and sun etc etc

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AndyDavies

I have always compared grades in this way as I thought it was stupid anyother way. I still think I will climb a route and think of its french grade though. But at the end of the day its just a climb. I don't think its nesessary to regrade routes a 28 has always to me been 7c just maybe soft or hard for its grade.

I cannot see the point of SA grade system anyway, so might as well align it to something known outside our little community. French seems fine, they differ from foreign crag to crag anyway.

Actually I can't seem to tell route grades very well at all. once practiced and fitter, routes get easier, if not they seem harder. Fairly useless post actually, sorry. steve

Actually Steve probably the only accurate and to the point post! There are only three grades: Easy (stuff u do in a try or three) Hard (stuff u work ur ass off to get) , and F_ing Hard (stuff it feels like u'll never get). Of course how these grades stack up against various problems varies from person to person and day to day depending on how they're feeling.

Which still doesnt explain how I flash 6A+ one minute and then fail miserably 5- the next! Grades are rubbish they obscure the real reason for climbing, seeing something cool that you wanna clamber up, and just going for it. I think people focus too much on the numbers instead of sussing it out from the ground and then just sending it (or not; see F_ing Hard above)

I suppose I agree. Surely the grade is just there so that you can get a feeling for your likelyhood of success on a route?

OR, perhaps it's all for your ego? My route is harder than yours...

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You have an opinion, so do I. When these differ, please don't confuse your opinion with the truth, nothing is absolute.

Apparently the hamster must keep running... meaning that we seem to keep having the same discussions.

Personally I like grades, because they are useful. They tell you how hard something is (approximately), if you are progressing as a climber and if you are following the correct line.

The downside of grades is when people start to think that they are important - ie a route is better because it is harder! Or that climbing harder routes will make you into a nicer person... Clearly that is bollox, although I suspect that there could be a school of thought that says that people who don't like grades are people who think that they are important.

What is \"important\" is if the climbing is good.

Summary: Use grades as a tool to improve your day, don't take them seriously as there will always be people with a different assessment of a grade a certain route.

I'll stop now.

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There's no point being pessimistic, because it probably won't work

Sorry guys but I must disagree, for me grades are important, not all important, but certainly play a part in what route I choose to climb or open. It's all about the challenge. It's nice to get on an easy route now and then but there is usually no challenge even if it is a stunning line. We all like to boast about out recent success and there's nothing wrong with that, it can motivate you to push harder or just feel good for your mates achievement. I guess it's about how you personally approach the sport and what you want from climbing or simply feel on the day.

Of course you guys are right, we need a universal scale so we can compare one route to another. I second Steve tho in that I also find it really hard to pin a number onto a route, its all so subjective, and surely secondary to the experiences and lessons we have doing the route.

Well, in time hopefully consensus grades surface, although we will probably disagree with them 20% of the time (different strengths, body types, bla bla etc). They are definitely an integral part of planning training sessions, and super useful when visiting new areas with limited time. Maybe they are a factor in chosing a route to climb, but surely not an overriding one? I mean its all about the line isnt it??

None of which has much to do with the original topic; great job Guy, bout time someone applied a bit of logic to that mess! And now back to the commentary box with Steve...............Steve???.............where did everybody go?............................

Hi Everyone,

Below are 3 grade tables, let me know which one everyone is in agreement with and thats the one we'll use.

No. 1


No. 2

Wiki Grade Table

No.3

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Climb ZA - Administrator

I personally don't think that any of them are correct. 8a = 30 (SA) = 5.13b = 29 Aus.

Trying to compare it to UK E grades is laughable. E6 can mean grade 23 death route or a 29 safe route.

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There's no point being pessimistic, because it probably won't work

the french grade system is the std internationally. so long as we have a direct grade comparison... who cares if its soft or hard? the numbers don't matter i.e. dropping a grade is not gonna make anyone climb a route they couldn't.

Last time I checked we were in South Africa. Who cares what our grades compare to oversees grades. When in Rome.......

Why change our grading system to fit or match other countries? Every grading system is unique, with their unique discrepancies from crag to crag. Trying to match ours to another seems to be a futile excercise. When I travel, I climb the country that I am visiting's grades and use their system. Why can't visitor to our country do the same? It adds to your adventure if you are in another country and need to use their grades and system - you learn more about the way they do it. Trying to tie it back to our country does nothing for our system.

I say keep it Proudly South African.....

Anyway, by just posting something on a forum and saying we will start using it, is not right. We grade our routes by consensus, so if you want to change the grading system, you'll need a lot more consensus and agreement before it becomes "law".

Surely this forum doesn't speak for the whole SA climbing community...

My two cents worth:
Sure the new grading scale is simpler, but I think that the goal should be accuracy and not simplicity! An sure it leads to discrepancies and differences of opinion to say that a 26 can be 7a+ or 7b, but doesn't it lead to more inaccuracy (and in the end less simplicity) to say that every SA 25 is 7a+, when it simply is not? The differences between the German/UIAA grading system and the French grading system are also not linear, but ... that's the way it is. The routes stay the same and the difficulty stays the same, whether you change the grade conversion table or not.
If one were to change the grade conversion between SA a French grades, one would have to regrade half the routes in SA between 19 and 27! And the question is, why bother? Why care whether the scale is linear or not? Every South African knows what a 19 and a 25 are, so what does it matter whether it is 6a / 6a+, or 7a / 7a+. Let the foreigners worry about the grade conversion! And anyway, unless you are climbing in the 8a and above range and climbing a certain grade is important for sponsorship, rankings, etc., the only reason you have to worry about the grade conversion is to know whether or not you can get up the route without having a huge epic, right? Someone who can get up 7a+ should also be able to get up a 7b, so it doesn't really matter what you convert a 26 to.
As for which grade conversion table I find the most accurate, my vote still goes to Joffrey's old SACIN one. Few 23's in SA would get a 6c+ vote from me and the same goes for 24 / 6c+ and 25 / 7a+. The SA grades are what they are, why change years of SA climbing history and tradition, to make it "fit" the French system better?

Boyz, let's look at the facts. The US "grades" lost out to the SA "grades" completely. THe English and Aussies weighed up there "grades" against each other. The Aussies came short. Then the french "grades" made it against the NZ "grades". all were surprised that the NZ "grades" could not make it. in the end it was only the English against SA "grades". but the SA "grades" won on the day. So the facts and history speak for itself. The SA "grades" are tops and they even beat the NZ "grades" again. Do you really want to change a winning combination. It goes to show that SA grades are the best and we don't have to stand back for any other grading system.

Take that to the bank.

My take on the SA/Aus comparison. From our few years of climbing in the Blue Mtns (got on to routes up to 24) as a whole did not find there be any difference to the SA grade. What we did find was a seemingly greater range in difficulty within a grade.

We did find the grades at Arapiles to be very solid and if one were using Arapiles as the benchmark for Aus then perhaps the variance between the two grades would be right. I'm not sure what the consenus view in Australia was but I got the feeling that Araps was thought to have stiff grading as opposed to Blue Mtns being soft.

An interesting comparison would be to see how the Aud guidebooks compare their grades against the French and US grades.