Thx 4 that c0mment, um, i guess its the same reas0n why tradies d0nt like b0lts on their r0utes?

Im d0ne c0mmenting on this f0rum, thanks Justin for your answer but your forum has c0me down to a bunch of guys that cant climb the grade that feel their imput is funny.

I w0uld qu0te n0w but im using a ph0ne, every piece of r0ck we have up n0rth is respected/sacred and lo0ked after n0matter h0w crap the climbing. H0wever you guys have so much rock your climbing is being destroyed by unappreceative climbers that dont kn0w what they have.

Ebert Nel
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such a small climbing c0mmunity, filled with so many sn0bs

Ebert, why do you think clombers are only worth something if they can "climb the grade". What does that even mean? Go overseas and see how little you can "climb the grade".
That's not what climbing is about.

When i was sixteen my brother took me out for my first climb.

It was on this wall at avalon springs, i couldn't get up the climbs and got myself completely scared.

It took me a long time to get back to climbing

Years later i actualy took up climbing seriously, when i cheacked the guide book the grades were in the 20-24 range.

If their had been plastic holds on the rock i would have probably started climbing at the young age of sixteen.

Good on you justin, i think it is a great idea.

That being said lets keep it in the avalon springs area, just for the kids.

Shame Ebert, one day hopefully you won't need to define yourself by the things you can climb up. Your ego will get the better of you at some point.

When I walked past those routes at Avalon Springs I thought what a waste for the hotel to put up those routes. No one but a serious climber would be able to get up there. Well done Justin for putting up the plastic. They don't need real routes they needed a gym wall.

guys, somebody says something stupid / awkward / untowards / whatever and then we're like a pack of hienas on a "bloedspoor". i really detest the perverse joy that some people get out of making somebody look stupid. come-on, cut the guy some slack (no, not on belay ) one of the great things about climbing is the "community"; much easier to tear people down than to build them up. and some are more sensitive than others - let's respect that.

i actually think there is some merit in his question - we can go on about private land & development and all that, but climbers bolting plastic on rock is a statement. i don't suppose it's going to start a a new wave of plastic grips on rock, but i think we should continue to at least keep a critical eye on things like that.

and if you get personal, put your name to it. it's a great way to keep yourself in check

While there is a little merit in his question. His argument is a bit of a slippery slope. Clearly the intension of the hotel was to put up routes for the entertainment of their guest. Not for a rockstar to come and show off there once in a while, then go back to his tent at De Bos. The situation there is unique, if other private land owners try and do the same they will probably not attract any climbers to their crags.

Mok, I was thinking the same thing... I share that sentiment. Let's listen to the core of his message, he's got a point (the presentation might need a bit of work though). I haven't seen that wall, so I can't say much, but it gives me an uncomfortable feeling. My concern is not so much rooted in the specific circumstances, but more with creating climbers who think it is OK. It's a bit like climbers who started climbing at a gym, they go to the mountain (if they ever go), with a set of preconceived ideas, but no idea what they are in for and what they should and shouldn't do. I don't say gym climbing is bad, or a private piece of rock with a plastic hold on it is bad. We just have a responsibility to show the ones interested in going to the mountains the acceptable way. That way we can preserve what is precious to us. The same goes for bolts, it is after all not all that much different.

Oi! Then why do I get the "nou-en-dan" belay?

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"I have no more friends, and my nuts are too small!"

Ebert should have known what was coming his way, taking the issue public. He could have asked Justin in private, but no he chose to do it in public, and now that the community do not appreciate his way of going about this, he wants to run away. I call that cowardice and childish.

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You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

Let's not go overboard, he had a legitimate question and I'm sure Justin is man enough to handle himself if he feels aggrieved.
Now I know what those poor seals off Muizenberg must feel like

Eish Ebert ... I am going to have to go out and do a couple of routes quickly to stop my head from spinning! And if I read another post from you I'll probably end up having to drive 95km to my closest chiropractor!

Why is "kloof" written with one big '0' and one small 'o' ? It is obviously faster clicking on your zero than three times on another key?

So there are actually no excuses, just being lazy?

And the less time you use writing on the forum & sms's, the more time you have to climb? Just stick to what you are good at - go climbing (because I don't feel like driving to Nelspruit with a crooked neck!)

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Gustav
Roc 'n Rope Adventures
Waterval Boven
013 257 0363
rocrope dot com

You little twerp, some people have jobs so they can pay for their climbing lives and don't rely on their mommies to look after them. A lot of people have jobs and work behind a desk and climb better than you could ever dream of climbing, go to Europe and catch a wake up you arent climbing that hard. Some people love climbing and also love other things and don't think climbing is the only thing in the universe important. Some people only climb grade 15 and love it, the grade you climb has nothing to do with how much you love it, don't be so arrogant.

As for plastic on rock and the attitude of little minds:

Thanks for that. I didn't want to actually have to say all of that myself.

At some point you'll need to pay for all your hardcoreness Ebert. Problem is that you are not climbing hard enough to get sponsored, so, like most of us, you'll need to get a job. This is called being grown up. Thanks for dissing me though. I love my work, more than climbing actually, but I still get to make time to head out and climb.

easy

Firstly sorry for offending everybody, ok, i didn't intend to do anything except find out how its justify-able to bolt plastic to rock. Another reason why i raised the question was that there is an unbolted crack just left of the new plastic line that wasn't used for anything, why not use that.

Secondly, i was not attacking the working people of the world, i was merely remarking on the fact that you guys sit behind your computers and comment on the forum with answers that aren't helping me because i wanted Justin's answer.

Thirdly i never use forums and i had no clue that you could personal message anybody, because i have never had to use it.

I'm not looking for a fight, i'd rather go climb a rock, all i wanted was an answer, sorry if i said some things in the heat of the moment, we drove far to visit a place, just want to know why its treated in the way its is.

Ebert Nel
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Not looking for a fight, just looking out for what i believe in!

Well, now that I see through your eyes, I have a lot more understanding of where you came from. I too apologize for my earlier remark.

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You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

Hi Ebert,

Thanks for your initial posting, I did give you an answer earlier however you did not like it.
The matter was bound to be raised and doing it here is probably the best place for it. I take no offence.

The crack to the left was not suitable for what I was wanting to do.

I knew what I was about to do would be controversial. It was a decision that I did not take lightly, I love the mountains and have the utmost respect for rock and I fully understand that whenever we pull out the drill, it cannot be undone.

This plastic route is a one off. I will not be creating any further routes in this manner and I am optimistic that this plastic route will take rock climbing in SA further (time will tell).
This plastic route is about introducing more people into the sport.

p.s. there are 3 other routes behind the water slide - be sure to take your own hangers

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Climb ZA - Administrator

Justin, it is never a one off. You set a precedent and there is now probably no stopping it.

Although bolted and non bolted rap lines are standard practise around the world including more than 10 rap routes on TM, disingenuous people call me a hypocrite for my views on bolted stances and the like on Yellowwood and use the bolted rap route "down time" to justify using bolts in other contexts at Yellowwood.

You pull out a drill anywhere and people will use that precedent out of context to drill the next thing and it tends to be a Tsunami. Same goes for bolted and chipped and glued holds.

There is no stopping it once you start it.

Best not to start it at all.

You set the standard by introducing people to climbing with plastic bolted-on holds. None of us needed that.

Justin, just don't hide any easter eggs in the jugs, people might grow up expecting that in Yellowwood too. Imagine the disillusionment.....

I think you should watch out for the gym owners, reckon they'll be coming to lynch you soon - Now they'll have to start putting up real rock between the grips, as that's what people will be expecting since your little experiment.

This could have all been avoided if you had of used real rock holds instead of plastic, in my opinion.
Going out and finding a bunch on good juggy rocks that have flat backs and drilling them could still be a solution should you wish to pursue it. I personally have done this with success, however I did not put the holds onto real rock, instead I used them in the gym. (boy do they bounce really high off the padding )

Ebert: Dont be a dick! perception is everything...

Justin: I trust that you did this with only good intensions at heart, perception is everything...

Guys! Girls! Ummm... reality check;
A few plastic holds on a rockface in an already built up play area of a hotel = 50 comments
An entire hotel complex built totally illegaly in the threatened and pristine Magaliesberg Protected Environment = 2 comments

Yeah....... wot Stu said (first picture post).

im not starting a new argument or i dont want to offend anybody else and i dont know anything in detail about this hotel thing, but cant someone argue that the "hotel" will allow people to experience what we are and if we dont want to allow this we just being selfish? This is just an though, please dont take it in the wrong way:)

Ebert Nel
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I tried bouldering today in our boulder cave and it was just way to boring, i want ROCK!

If it wasn't Justin who fitted the holds this discussion would have gone the other direction

I disagree.

I'm going to start writing my posts by leaving out the letters C L and T or maybe just avoid vowels (thats AEIO and U.... just in case), I can feel I'm getting cooler already, I think I've just climbed two grades harder... ooh look naked chicks