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 Post subject: Trad rescue etc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:17 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:08 am
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Real Name: Raymond Kroger
We did a really useful "Trad Self-Rescue" course in CT this Sunday - thanks to the MSCA for hosting this event. Had a thought - has anyone ever had to use such techniques - i.e. assisted hauling of your second, unassisted hauling (3:1 pulleys etc), escaping the belay etc? Please tell your story if so - has anyone ever needed to use these skills? How regularly if so?

(The obvious exclusion is mountain rescue/rope access where they use them regularly - my question is in a self-rescue scenario)

Ray


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 Post subject: Re: Trad rescue etc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:06 pm 
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I've used an unassisted haul several times to pull a seconds line really tight. Almost entirely while doing overambitious things with mates rather than guiding! I've also had partners battle with big packs while doing apline stuff, and had to haul the bag up ahead of them on a crux pitch.

Incidents on TM, in Chamonix, and hauling the pig on Oceans come to mind.

It much easier to do if you've rigged the belay up on an ATC guide / Reverso in the first instance.

I think I've once had to pass a knot in anger, so the escaping the belay skills come in handy there.

Self-protecting an abseil is also a habit that is really worth getting into, which uses only the basics of these skills regularly (unless you get yourself caught up!)


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 Post subject: Re: Trad rescue etc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:12 pm 
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We rigged an upside down 3:1 with a ATC guide and a prussic in an attempt to detangle a stuck abseil rope, while on a ledge one pitch from the deck.

Needless to say we ended up by down climb soloing in the dark because our bright plan didn't work :pale:


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 Post subject: Re: Trad rescue etc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:12 pm 
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I once had to prussic up a stuck abseil rope, never knowing when it might come loose...

The brown stripe could be seen from faarrr aaway!

... :santa:


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 Post subject: Re: Trad rescue etc
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:54 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
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Location: Montagu
Real Name: Justin Lawson
DAcaveman wrote:
I once had to prussic up a stuck abseil rope, never knowing when it might come loose...

That's hectic, not sure I would have the nerve to do it! Was it your only choice?

I've performed an un-assisted hoist for a client on the final pitch of 'Another Day in Paradise' The client had trouble getting up a hardish section, so i hauled him about 3 meters.
It's a very useful thing to be able to do.

As Ant mentions, protecting your abseil is a worthy habit to get into (especially on thin trad rope).

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 Post subject: Re: Trad rescue etc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 7:55 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:53 am
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Prussicing on a stuck rope is extremely dangerous. You can protect yourself to some extent by tying off the rope at the bottom or having your partner belay you and then placing gear as you prussic as and when you find it. And as you climb tie loops in the rope below you and clip it to your harness.

In all these things prevention is always better than cure. It is a good idea to simulate situations as you have done.

Most climbing pitches around the world are less than 50m and abseil stations are less than 30m so 60m ropes being heavier and more cumbersome to use than shorter ropes are not really needed if you use double ropes. However they can get you out of trouble and into trouble too.

With a 60m rope you have more options for lowering someone and abseiling. But they can also tempt you into longer abseils creating more difficulty if the ropes get stuck and they can temp you into doing longer pitches which makes communication and rescue more difficult. So be careful with them.


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 Post subject: Re: Trad rescue etc
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:16 am 
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Real Name: Justin Lawson
A friend had an minor epic when the rope made a half hitch just below the chain whilst pulling their rope!

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 Post subject: Re: Trad rescue etc
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 3:23 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:28 pm
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Real Name: Murray S.
SNORT wrote:
Prussicing on a stuck rope is extremely dangerous. You can protect yourself to some extent by tying off the rope at the bottom or having your partner belay you and then placing gear as you prussic as and when you find it. And as you climb tie loops in the rope below you and clip it to your harness.


I'm confused Snort, tying off short while prussicing would merely protect you were your prussics to fail or unclipping of your biners happened etc.
This wouldn't hold u if the rope came unstuck and you hadn't reached the other end that was dangling/stuck. (considering it was still threaded thru the anchors above and had not completely run thru)

Recon if u were worried of it coming unstuck u would need to use the slack that had already been pulled down to climb/re-climb the pitch, trying yr best to find the other end, grab it, tie in then wrap yr prussics to both ropes. (unless of course you abseiled over an overhang in which case uuuummm... Start making tea and break out the Kendall Mint Cake)

Or just crank the kak out of it with an inverted 1:5 pulley (using a ground anchor) till the rope snaps or top anchor gives way!! Have had to do this before... pretty good way to see how strong that old bit of abseil tat really is!!


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 Post subject: Re: Trad rescue etc
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 3:58 pm 
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I doubt a 5:1 would do it.
We attempted to break old prussic using a 9:1 with 8 guys pulling. (or what was the exact ration, Mr Le Maitre?)
We failed to break the prussic.

Depending on how the rope is stuck, you will probably not be able to free it this way either.

What Snort is getting at is the following:

1. You prussic up the rope.
2. You pretend that the rope above you does not exist.
3. You pretend that the prussic is the ficure-of-8 tied into you harness and that you are actually leading.
4. Should the rope come unstuck while half way up the climb, you will fall as per lead fall (onto your last piece of gear, belayer catching you, prussic acting as the knot)

That is why you HAVE to use a 3Wrap prussic as it breaks in both directions.
Any, and all other prussic knots are 1 directional, and will slip off the rope when it is inverted in case of a lead fall.

If you don't understand the above, please refrain from rock climbing until such time as you have been properly schooled
:mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Trad rescue etc
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 4:13 pm 
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To add to the original heading.

3 skills in Trad which you have to know:

1) Prussic up a rope (With prussics as well as ropeman, grigri, shunt, whatever)

2) Learn to do assisted haul (a reverso is brilliant for this, but you have to rig it correctly from the start)
- Note that if you rig a reverso and there is a redirect to the side (ie Travers) the autolock function DOES NOT WORK.

3) Learn to escape the system. (Irrelevant if you are using a reverso and have rigged it for rope capture/potential hauling.)


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 Post subject: Re: Trad rescue etc
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 6:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:40 am
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Location: Stellenbosch
Real Name: Nic Le Maitre
Hann wrote:
I doubt a 5:1 would do it.
We attempted to break old prussic using a 9:1 with 8 guys pulling. (or what was the exact ration, Mr Le Maitre?)
We failed to break the prussic.


It was 9:1 with 11 people hauling, all we did was debark the tree :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Trad rescue etc
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:00 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:28 pm
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Real Name: Murray S.
Hann wrote:
I doubt a 5:1 would do it.
We attempted to break old prussic using a 9:1 with 8 guys pulling. (or what was the exact ration, Mr Le Maitre?)
We failed to break the prussic.


Uuuummm... Ur team obviously wasn't pulling hard enough... Jolkes :jocolor: No but seriously, did u use any sort of rolling pulleys or were u using rope straight thru your biners (ie, increasing your friction co-efficient)
Neway, neither here nor there as neither of us knows how thick either of our respective prussics/tat was!!

Hann wrote:
4. Should the rope come unstuck while half way up the climb, you will fall as per lead fall (onto your last piece of gear, belayer catching you, prussic acting as the knot)

To be quite honest, is taking a leader fall onto a prussic that good of an idea?? And even if one had to tie in short, it would be a bit of a faf!!
Would rather just lead on what had been pulled already!! Depending on whether or not you had done a diagonal abseil obviously.

I think i have a firm grasp of what you outlined in your 4 points there Mum... may i be allowed to continue climbing?? promise i'll be responsible :thumright


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 Post subject: Re: Trad rescue etc
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 3:08 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 5:48 pm
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acaciaproject wrote:
That is why you HAVE to use a 3Wrap prussic as it breaks in both directions.


So, will it break in both directions (bad) or
will it brake in both directions (good)

unless you enjoy slipping screaming down a rope I think the second...


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 Post subject: Re: Trad rescue etc
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 3:12 pm 
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@ douard:
Ja, hey, us afrikaanse ouens haf it hart wif english.
But ja..... brake :thumright

@ acaciaproject:
You'll have to post photos of you biceps and the steel below your figure of 8 knot.
Then I'll speak to dad :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Trad rescue etc
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Location: Waterval Boven
Nogal skerp vir 'n Le Roux :pirat:

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 Post subject: Re: Trad rescue etc
PostPosted: Fri May 13, 2011 5:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:40 am
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Location: Stellenbosch
Real Name: Nic Le Maitre
acaciaproject wrote:
Uuuummm... Ur team obviously wasn't pulling hard enough... Jolkes :jocolor: No but seriously, did u use any sort of rolling pulleys or were u using rope straight thru your biners (ie, increasing your friction co-efficient)
Neway, neither here nor there as neither of us knows how thick either of our respective prussics/tat was!!


We were using pulleys, nice big efficient ones too. Some guys in the States have done work on effective pull strength of your average person, works out to considerably less than you body weight, don't have the article to hand, wait four months and when I'm back home I'll post it :jocolor: But what it all boils down to is that cord/tat is very strong. I can't recall either the load at which prussiks will slip on a rope, I think that it is at about 7-9kN (9mm prussik on 11mm rope). [Brent, help me out here, I'm a bit rusty]

On the occasion that we did get the prussik to fail, it desheathed the rope and moved about 1m before melting into the rope. It still held the rope, so it failed safe even though it would have given the person (if there had been one) on the end the fright of their life!

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