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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:41 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
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Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
Being a policeman requires effort. Who has time for effort? Why would anyone allow themselves to be policed?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:00 pm 
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So it's all about current human utility then, Marshall? Everything is up for grabs? Think about the logical end point to that kind of viewpoint.

I realise you're probably just taking the piss, but it's silly.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:34 pm 
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Real Name: Warren Gans
I think we agree that this topic is more serious for some then it is for others.

For those that choose to add contructive thought on the topic: what do we- thru consensus- want to do about bolting at Oudtshoorn? Can we agree that all available lines from the bottom of the main crag are spoken for, and that new routes could only happen above the existing routes?

In light of recent events should we also impose a rule that only certain types of bolt be used there? if so those more qualified than me should stipulate which.

I hope that trad climbers don't think of sport crags as areas that have already been written off, and therefore it is irrelevant what happens there. If this is the case, then the logic of cutting down the yellow wood to get a better view would be on the basis that the area has been scared by the house, so who cares about the old tree?

Please re-read my signature

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Sandbagging is a dirty game


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:59 pm 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
Sorry about reality, everything on the Main Wall has already been grabed. Not everyone is happy. What can be done?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:41 pm 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
Marshall1 wrote:
Sorry about reality, everything on the Main Wall has already been grabed. Not everyone is happy. [- Too right! Where's my line?] What can be done? [- I know! Lets chop all the bolts then we can rebolt to spec and get to reopen and rename all the routes! Woohoo! Brilliant, Marshall and I can get some and all the ppl like me who are terrified of rotting bolts can sleep easily.]


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 7:33 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
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Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
A man with a plan.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:06 am 
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Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 2:10 pm
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Location: cape town
Suddenly makes taking a whipper onto a bolt pretty scary.....It has to be just a matter of time before somebody falls and a bolt breaks, lets all hope nobody gets hurt.

I guess the only positive we can take from this is there might be a trad revival... Turns out all the falls I had on trad weren't actually as dangerous as people thought :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:27 am 
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My prediction is that we'll start seeing this kind of thing more and more as time goes on. If we look at the climbing boom in SA, which was around the mid-90's to now, there are many many routes sitting with 15 year old bolts. Since there is no real way to test them (without being destructive), I'd be climbing trad by now too. I've always trusted trad placements more than bolts.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:59 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:45 pm
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Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Wonder if the issues at Oudshoorn are the same as those they had in Krabi a few years back? Apparently the limestone there has a high acid content or something (feel free to correct me?), that made the bolts fail prematurely? I think they ended up using titanium glue ins as a longer term solution.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:31 pm 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
Ok you buy the Titanium, we'll put it in!

Look up: Tortuga titanium anchors, manufactured by (a subsidiary of) Liberty Mountain Works. -Hope ur feeling flush!


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
I'm actually asking the question, not telling you what to do. You can replace the bolts with paperclips for all I care. I'd never go near the place anyway, had my fill of bolted limestone many moons ago.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:23 pm 
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Hi, although I only get to climb about once every two years at Oudtshoorn, I enjoy the outing a lot and would be sad if I had to stop doing it because I don't trust the bolts anymore. As I have no experience in bolting and live in Pretoria the only viable contribution I would be able to make is money.
Surely there are enough individuals that have climbed at Oudtshoorn in the past or are going to who feel the same?

Is it not possible to start a fund or even better use an existing fund like the ARF and by using a certain reference set aside money for Oudtshoorn, be it for glue-inns, titanium etc? (whatever the person willing to rebolt deems necessary)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:02 pm 
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Krabi limestone is particularly corrosive, because of the chemical makeup of the rock (limestone = calcium carbonate, something to do with carbonic acid maybe? Any chemists/geologists out there that can comment? ) combined with the proximity to the ocean, providing moisure and salt. Also, the Andaman Sea is apparently pretty shallow close to the coast - a guy there told me the lack of water circulation round southern Thailand increases the salt concentration in the water due to evaporation (this bit is possibly complete horse shit).

Overall this sounds like similar circumstances to what the ARF have correlated to SCC - moisture & chloride, but the corrosion there is so aggressive that the type of bolt (rolled vs turned vs glue in) did not really make a difference, nor did the type of stainless steel (304 vs 316). They all corrode, just at varying rates.

The only thing not being eaten at a horrific rate by the limetsone there is Ti. Even stainless 316 glue-ins aren't really considered safe. There are numerous routes in Thailand (at Ko Phi Phi, Ton Sai, Railay) where you can see the original expansion bolt, rusted to shit, next to the stainless 316 P-type glue in it was replaced with (like the ones used by ARF), rusted to shit around the base but still shiny, next to the darkish grey titanium glue in. Yes that's right, many routes have been rebolted twice because of corrosion... And not too many rebolters go back and chop the old bolts. All in all a paradise being f*ed up at high speed. Go experience it before it is totally trashed and/or totally closed.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:38 pm
Posts: 327
Bad news about that bolt. Its amazing how weak a bolt be though and still hold. I have tapped of bolts with a fist before that held whippers only a week before.

One thing that we should try and promote is that if you open new lines often dont neglect to replace the bolts on the old classic route next-door that has 15-20 year old rusting bolts. Guys hardly ever do this, not good. So, please guys, for every route you open, rebolt an old one and feel good. Not only will it make us earn our new routes but will lead to safety and preservation of our classics. Always try replace all of the bolts as doing some selectively leads to a complicated situation 10 years from now (though I dont want to take away from Jimbo's replacing the seven bolt) and always use a little bit of pratleys putty over the old hole so that the rock will love you.

Andrew


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:42 pm 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
Andrew thats cool thought but the cost is often prohibitive. It will take a fund to do the job properly. All the routes bolted around the mid 90's (and theres a lot of them) are due for a refresh. The main problem is the turned bolts, if you take the sleeve off those old bolts there is only a 6mm shaft under the sleeve! Obviously they arent up to the task.

On the bright side rolled bolts are way better. In Krabi they discovered that run off from rotting vegetation was intensifying the acidity of the rock, as well as there being certain chemicals in that limestone that are detrimental to steel. Whether there are similar chemicals in our limestone has not yet been determined.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:59 pm 
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Hi Xmod,

If you have the money to bolt the new route, you should be able to find the money for the old one, or even better, rebolt the old one instead, atleast sometimes. In Joburg, the MCSA is doing a great thing by supporting the bolting of old routes so no excuse there.

A


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:04 pm 
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Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
Why do the same people always have to do all the work & take the cost...while the others sit back & do f...all?


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:43 pm 
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Hi Andrew, Marshalls point is valid, its unfair to expect the same ppl to continually bear the cost of development and, now, maintenace of routes. The end users (those who dont bolt but follow routes) should play an equal role, and most of them are happy to do so. I definitely cant afford to maintain all of my routes (and I havent done that many), not from an expense point of view or timewise. Ive already replaced half of Kalk Bays anchors once and am on my second round of refreshing hangers and lower-offs - its draining.

@ ChrisF, sorry just joking around, did not mean to offend. The price of a Tortuga titanium bolt is about $23US each. Thats about R150 plus shipping, plus VAT. If you start to calculate the cost of replacing every anchor in SA with these you quickly realise that its beyond the means of our small community. Glue-in SS bolts are retailing here at about R40 - a lot more affordable!

Fortunately the ARF initiative has proven very effective and many new guys have been trained up. Also Robert from City Rock has been offering bolting kit at cost price, which for the first time has made it about the same price to use high quality glue-ins as mechanicals. Hopefully they can keep the price of new stock of bolts down. Im certainly going to try and use glue-ins on future routes, its a lot more work to place them but worth it to know that what you leave behind will last as long as possible. In light of the above I think we can reasonably positive about the future, we're using better equipment and there are more of us to help fix stuff. People do need to check when a route was equipped before jumping on it. Bolts more than 15yrs old should be treated with caution and all the turned bolts should be regarded as somewhat suspect as they are obviously not really up to spec.

Anyway I could ramble on...... Im just disappointed as Ive been on at ppl not to use turned bolts for a very long time, unfortunately people opting to use the cheaper turned bolts is now coming around to bite us in the arse! So bolters: do us all a big favour, dont scrimp on quality, use rolled 316 bolts or glue-ins if you know how. Be aware that you leave a legacy behind when you bolt something - make it a good legacy, not a headache for future generations!

PS It may be worthwhile looking into using 5piece rawl type bolts, these are removable and can theoretically be replaced periodically, in most cases simply re-using the old hole. These are still susceptible to SCC however.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:52 pm 
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I agree Xmod, good to get support, all I am saying is rebolt an old route now and then. Simple as that. It is generally a more commendable action than bolting a new line. Marshall, you don't fool me, you love bolting! I do too but I dont pretend its a chore, its great! I have also spent lots of my own money bolting but that was my choice, if someone else wants to pay that's great and welcome but I would pay anyway as it's what I enjoy most, you do too....obviously. So please lets not cry about it. If you really want praise, rebolt something classic, something that people climb a lot, they will thank you for it. Or organise a fund, if people believe in your work they will support you, don't you find that?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:42 am 
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Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
XMod wrote:
@ ChrisF, sorry just joking around, did not mean to offend.


All good, you know badly tone is carried across on the tinterweb. :wink:

And thanks for the responses re: Thailand bolts you and Pierre.


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