If a novice goes climbing with an experienced climber, and the novice does something stupid that results in an accident, it is totally the fault of the experienced climber. How can a novice be expected to know that a rope shouldn't run over another rope? Especially if there is a loop hanging there and all the other ropes in the place are rigged in a similar way. I agree that the gym has no right to keep their doors open unless they change their ways. As far as I can tell, the majority of people going there are novices (because most experienced climbers know that the place is dodge), and they dont know any better. Whats to stop a novice from clipping into a gear loop instead of the belay loop (hell, I've seen that done by someone in one of the kloofs!), or threading the belay device wrong? I agree that its easy to bitch and moan, and running a gym must be a difficult business venture, but that doesnt excuse such blatant negligence. I'm sure they must be breaking some kind of law/act.

Ive already expressed my feelings about this gym, I find the general level of either ignorance or indifference displayed in this incident inexplicabale and totally unacceptable. I must have read every climbing book in the library before ever tying into a rope. Just because we're climbing indoors does not lessen the seriousness of holding another persons life in our hands each time we climb belayed.

I strongly urge every climber to make a point of checking the safety of not only your own party but also that of the climbers on either side of you. Francois Legrand (world difficulty champ) makes a point of doing this and thanks other people when they check him. This one the worlds best climbers, encouraging lesser climbers, who just also happen to be at the crag, to do buddy checks on his rig!! It doesnt matter how good or bad you are at climbing if you pick up an error politely point it out. If you are new to the sport and unsure always ask. If we make this standard practice there will be far fewer accidents in the sport as a whole. Im sure we all want to live to climb for many more years so lets look out for each other.

OK, this may put you all to sleep, but i felt the urge to do this properly. And its more for the gym owners than anyone else.

If you don't get Edward de Bono's Six Thinking Hats, google it.

White Hat:
1. The guy wasn’t badly hurt
2. The gym claims no serious accident in 11 years of operation
3. Potentially Hearsay: the guy involved is NOT a beginner climber – please confirm
4. The casual worker is an experienced climber of good standing with the gym
5. The gym provides a valid service to both beginner and experienced climbers
6. The make up of clientele in terms of the above is 50/50.
7. This means that at any point, there should be quite a few experienced climbers present at the gym, and this has been, in my experience, true.
8. All clients must sign a responsibility waiver before using the gym
9. The accident in question was due to human error, not equipment failure
10. Hearsay - Other gyms in the country have worse accident records – one in Cape Town was mentioned – please confirm

Questions:
1. Did the climber in question sign the waiver?
2. What is the gym regulation in terms of clients putting up their own ropes?
3. Has the casual worker in this case faced disciplinary procedures?
4. What is the gym’s safety policy and how is this enforced?
5. Does anyone have concrete evidence of accidents in the past that would dispute the 11 year safety record?


Red Hat:

My emotional response: You cant just go around calling for shutting down of businesses when you don’t have all the facts, and nothing illegal appears to have been done. This is a lynch mob, not cool collected justice. If you sign a waiver at a gym, you should stick by your signature bar equipment failure, or if you are a minor who has been left completely unsupervised (i.e. no adult signed the waiver).

Red Hat from most others: Forcibly shut it down and burn the bits you can’t carry away with you. Safety has been severely compromised by the gym, and only the gym.


Black Hat:
1. The gym in question has a bad reputation despite its claim of no accidents over 11 years.
2. The gym is looking shoddy, and the state of the equipment at times has been highly questionable (ropes have recently been replaced)
3. The owners are more often than not, not on hand should an emergency arise.
4. The casuals seem to be unconcerned about the safety of their patrons, given the events that have been allowed to occur
5. People are not aware of the do’s and don’ts of gym climbing i.e. not putting up their own ropes, experienced climbers soloing routes, children being allowed to belay each other badly despite being in the presence of their allocated guardians.
6. Shutting the place down will leave many Jo’burg climbers who train there without a valuable service
7. Beginners are not adequately educated upon arrival as to how to belay and climb
8. Safety issues could lead to a serious accident if not dealt with immediately

Yellow Hat:
1. No severe injury has occurred as yet
2. There are climbing bodies in Gauteng with the street credibility if not outright authority who could be called upon to do a safety check and report
3. These same authorities may be in the position to influence the behaviour of the owners, and if not, the awareness of their potential clientele in regards to safety procedures
4. We live in a free market society (not Cold War Russia) and have other avenues than lynching to sorting this type of thing out
5. We have sensible suggestions from people like Mark and to some extent Grigri ( I thoroughly agree that climbers should look out for each other – not because they are forced to, but because they are generally decent human beings)
6. We have forums such as this one where safety issues can be brought to the fore before something really bad happens
7. We are fortunate that no-one has been hurt yet, and we may still have time to salvage the situation

Green Hat:

My suggestions to the owners are:

1. Invite the MCSA to send a representative to check the safety of the gym on a spot-check basis regularly, and issue a report to its members
2. Publish in bold the safety regulations of the gym, as well as the regulations that it requests each of its casual workers to sign (website, MCSA website, a big board as you walk in)
3. Re-train the casual workers and emphasize that it would not only be the gym guilty of negligence should equipment fail or someone get badly hurt
4. Have a beginner training evening once a month – about an hours worth – where casuals are all on hand to help. Dance schools do this with great success – the lesson is offered free, and thereafter you have a captive audience for the selling of further contracts. Casuals could earn commission if they work for free that evening.
5. Change the light bulbs that have blown.
6. Have an age restriction for belaying
7. Have a suggestion and complaints box whereby climbers who see things going wrong can bring it to attention

Blue Hat:
Having personally done some enquiry into this matter with the gym in question, and through close following of this forum, I think there is still time for improvement before trying to forcibly close the gym. If the owners however show no improvement, I will not continue my membership

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Have Fun...

Green Hat:

My suggestions to the owners are:

1. Invite the MCSA to send a representative to check the safety of the gym on a spot-check basis regularly, and issue a report to its members
2. Publish in bold the safety regulations of the gym, as well as the regulations that it requests each of its casual workers to sign (website, MCSA website, a big board as you walk in)
3. Re-train the casual workers and emphasize that it would not only be the gym guilty of negligence should equipment fail or someone get badly hurt
4. Have a beginner training evening once a month – about an hours worth – where casuals are all on hand to help. Dance schools do this with great success – the lesson is offered free, and thereafter you have a captive audience for the selling of further contracts. Casuals could earn commission if they work for free that evening.
5. Change the light bulbs that have blown.
6. Have an age restriction for belaying
7. Have a suggestion and complaints box whereby climbers who see things going wrong can bring it to attention

Blue Hat:
Having personally done some enquiry into this matter with the gym in question, and through close following of this forum, I think there is still time for improvement before trying to forcibly close the gym. If the owners however show no improvement, I will not continue my membership.

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Have Fun...

Howsit Megawatt - before anybody challenges you - that was a good constructive mail - hopefully the gym consider it in their response

The way i see it is as follows;

The accident was a perfect oppurtunity for everyone to start bitching and moaning about the gym, yes it is a shocking place to climb and generally considered a waste of time and money. unfortunately you must see it from both points of view, most people will be glad when/if it closes down (whether now or in 20 years) those people have used this accident as a leg up to get rid of the place (can't really blame them tho, it shouldn't be called a place to \"climb\")

But if the gym closes down, the people who enjoy climbing there will start moaning about the absence of a gym.

catch 22...

If people know whats good for them they'll stay far away from this gym in hopes of a better one opening.

but if you enjoy the gym and adhere to safety standards then it's your choice. climb there if you want, don't if you don't want to

Its simple..

Good thread this, loads of flaming with most of it probably from naked teenagers sitting at home masturbating and typing at the same time

Re. the Kya issue, I have to agree that is without a doubt the cr@ppest hell hole I have ever seen, worse even that the abortion that I built for myself circa 1991.....a rented garage with no lighting, a (not apparent at time of construction) leaking roof and a periodic semi-vandalistic vagrant population. But it was cheap and it worked, and more to the point, I chose to continue with it.

Ditto Kya. I belive it would be reasonable to say that the gym has underperformed operationally and finacially, and the the one feeds into and further reinforces the other in a self perpetuating cycle of impending failure.

The owners (in a cunning, nursery school type of) fiscal approach is to seemingly generate once-off subscription revenues at the expense of monthly ones, this through a cycle of ever more (un?)attractive longer term memberships at ever decreasing cost. Is this working?......well, aparently yes, because they have been doing this for some time. Is it sustainable?...the law of markets and economics would suggest not.

But for now they thunder on, and many choose to train there in the absence of any other (as of yet) viable alternative. I certainly do, and not with any degree of wild enthusiasm. Given an alternative I would swing gyms on the spot. But I am really happy that I understand that basics and have a lot of scepticism re. the safety of 'low airtime' climbers that arrive for guidance...not that the gym positions itself for training/instruction.

The guys helping out there are not to the best of my knowledge acting in any sort of safety capacity, but in their defence I don't believe that they are mandated as such. They simply check membership, collect day fees and equipment rentals, and open up/lock up.

But the place is really shoddy. Aesthetics aside, the ropes were astonishingly bad at one stage, the one on the main overhang was worn (sheath thru/core in progress).....I cut it in half to prevent any (possibly spend driven) further oversights and went around lopping off old tail ends where appropriate (massive core/sheath slippage present, along with some where at the carabiner interface sections).

The owner arrived later that evening and had a look at the now ropeless wall, inspected the rope and didn't miss a beat. I almost got the idea that he had taken the hint.

A couple of days later a lot of the ropes were replaced.

This is one of those situations where you either get to put up/shut up, or change your training regime and move on. I don't like it, at all.......but I accept that I will for now live with it.

Free market economy, build a better mousetrap and the word will beat a path to your door. That, or use the existing model.....

Everyone has the right to opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Firstly, if the climber who the accident really did post his analysis of the accident then 10 big massive points for him - that takes balls.

I'm a little worried though, because the post arrives just after ClimbZA's post saying that they've contacted the gym and waiting for a response from them,

And then the post from the climber which, in more words, says \"Hey it's not the gyms fault, it's mine\" - \"Be nice to the gym\". Even the climber call's himself \"dumbass_climber\"; which tugs sympathy strings.

Now, the father has been asking around - I mean that's how Roland got hold of the story, why would the son, brand new at climbing, magically find this forum discussing his accident?

Sorry doesn't make sense. My best guess is that WAS the post from the gym.

Peace.

Received an email from Roland Magg as part of a broader mailing.....requesting feedback on interest in using the St. Peter's indoor wall down the road (probably 10km or so).

Looks like the good man is setting something up there, so for all the unhappy campers out there, this may be best shot.

St. Peters is more geared for bouldering, but this will probably suit the majority that have had issues with Kya's lack of facility ITR.

Later,
J

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John

I don’t know the exact circumstances of the incident in question, so I won’t make any comments about it. I’ll leave that up to the gym to explain…
However, according to ClimbZA admin, the owners were contacted well over a week ago, and whaddayaknow no response yet! I also notice nothing has been written on this thread for a while- Am I the only one seeing a problem here?
It’s incredibly convenient for those responsible to hide their head in the sand until the whole issue has been forgotten, which appears to be happening right now.

I think, in all this talk on responsibility, we’re forgetting what actually happened- A kid could have nearly died!

It’s time for us, as climbers, to stop beating around the bush and start naming-and –shaming places like these i.e. Kya Sands Gym.

A little history on the above-mentioned:
I climbed regularly at the gym until about a year ago when I started noticing a blaring disregard for safety as well as any regard for furthering the sport. I have since boycotted that gym and luckily convinced my climbing friends to do the same.

I recall showing a group of scouts on a Friday night how to belay safely etc while the casual in charge was sitting behind the counter with his girlfriend on his lap playing Nintendo!! Since when is it my responsibility to train and ensure safety in an established gym? I have no problem guiding those who are struggling, but when the dullard employed can’t even climb a grade 16 and is more interested in scoring that night, I have a huge problem.

I wonder if the pile of disassembled climbing walls with all their nails sticking out is still lying around next to the toilets? Oh sorry, did I say toilets… I meant toilet…

Are the ropes being used still so old that they’re about as hard as a lead pipe and far too thick to even fit through an ATC? I’m sure those frayed ends can’t be all that dangerous…!! That’s assuming the ropes are even available. I remember asking for and even signing a petitition for new ropes from the owner to replace the old and set up new on existing walls. They arrived eventually (A couple too few) after about 2 months. Is static rope so expensive?
Maybe this is why a beginner was setting up a route…

I always worry when gym memberships are R900 per year, then one month later R700 per year, then one month later R700 for a lifetime… Sounds familiar to a certain departed fitness gym…? I also worry when I see the owners coming in at night and pocketing the nights takings without investing a cent back into the gym (I wonder what the current state of ropes is at abovementioned gym?)

The list goes on and on and on…

Kya sands gym is an accident waiting to happen and it’s up to us to help put it out of business. I cannot understand how people can still support such a place. Train at home, train at virgin active, train at the crags, train anywhere, but for heaven’s sake don’t support a place in where cash is the order of the day and which doesn’t give two stuffs about you or your welfare!
PS: I find it incredibly suspicious that dumbass_climber was setting up a rope… I have never seen a beginner putting up a rope in a gym before? Whats more, I have never seen any spare rope lying around Kya sands before… I’d appreciate it if dumbass climber would name himself, because I suspect that anonymous apology was made by management to help calm the flames….

Suspicious isnt it, how did dumbass_climber who \"had never top roped before\" even make it to the top of the wall to feed the rope in? Peculiar?

Everyone has the right to opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Everyone has the right to opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

I don’t know about the others on the board – but I have a serious problem with “guest climbers” who voice their illiterate opinions about other people on this board. Poke fun in good humour, possibly even take the p*ss out of someone who deserves it, but keep your smart ass personal attacks to your self.

I happen to agree with Megan on not trying to close down the gym ( I have never climbed there my self) but rather educating them and their users on the right way. I don’t think any body has the time or effort to police these facilities and we can, at best, react with punitive law suites against the management should anything go wrong. I also think that users should take responsibility. After all, you’re the lucky one who gets to deck if you did not at least attempt to check the top anchors.

Apolgies for the late response.
Check the Climb ZA news for the Kya Sands statement (link below).

http://www.climb.co.za/news_detail.asp?newsid=350

Everyone has the right to opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

This is their answer?? No explanations or analysis, and poor english to boot (It may not be your first language? but in a letter of this importance surely its worth having an english scholar look it over first?) The attempts at sarcasm are lost in translation from the mire of syntax and grammatical errors! I realise the scathing attacks in this thread can be upsetting but imagine how the injured boy and his father feel. I really expected a far more serious and responsible reply (excuse the pun).

To Joburg climbers: get together with some mates rent a garage and build a woody. You'll get way strong, have fun, and save the money you spend going to that place. Of course if one of you falls on your head you'll only have yourself to blame, but that is a subject for another thread.

Guest cant believe you made friendships at the gym??What did jou buy them candy??Cant really imagine u making friendships with anybody!!

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Wie's jou pappa!

Everyone has the right to opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Boys & Girls,

Keep it tidy and the personal bickering offline or email one another. Und don’t mention ze the war!

I am not a climber (I ride mountain bikes and do karate). I started a mountain bike ride safe park near Cresta In JHB. Not very successful (yet). I was planning to research whether the park would succeed if I expanded the theme to create an outdoor extreme adventure centre.

I want kids to have what I had - scabs on knees, grins so wide they hook on trees and a healthy regard for their own bodies. I hate malls.

A climbing wall is a key element of my planning. If this is something that can work and will enjoy the support (and advice & input) of a committted community then I would bend my back to the task. I don't want to lose any more money on this project, but I am not in it for the huge pot of gold at the end of the rope. brendan@butterflypig.co.za

Hey Grunting Butterfly, it sounds like you rock! Would love to support your place - whats the adi?

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Have Fun...

My whole existance doesnt revolve around you guest but i'll take the time to help you become a better persone.One day when jou all grown up it will make more sense to you.

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Wie's jou pappa!

Dear Kya Sands...

I'm sitting here in Cape Town so don't have all the history around Kya Sands. However here is my perspective:

1) Any small accident is a precorsor for a bigger one - instead of saying to the injured climber \"at least you didn't get hurt\", you should have said what, how and why did it happen and how can we prevent it happening again? (my suggestion is some kind of climber qualification and serious floor supervision like other gyms have) PS I heard there have been many small accidents at Kya Sands?

2) The Kya Sands Management response on this website is damning evidence that management are responsible for this accident. Management have openly admitted that their staff are incapable of performing their assigned safety functions. Also the response is indicative of a poor safety culture - blaming accidents on other issues will not solve the problem - and just because accidents happen outdoors or at other gyms will never take away the liability if it can be shown that management was negligent.

I suggest Kya Sands management has a serious rethink about their attitude towards managing their gym safely. It would be sad if it was shut down.

AD

Saying that the casuals are responsible is ridiculous. If there is no system in place for them to ensure that people know what they're doing, how are they supposed to do their job. And just because the casuals have signed a job description, doesn’t make them liable. If I sign a job description saying that I will control air traffic at an airport, and I am then not given a control tower, radar and all the other necessary things, how can I be expected to perform my job.

Furthermore, unless there is some kind of training or test for new casuals, how does management know that they can actually do the work. By the same token, do you really think an airport hires air traffic controllers without first putting them through some kind of test.

Even if I were the safest, best and most experienced climber in the world and I were put in a room full of novices (and kids) and had no systematic and quantifiable method of checking their competence, there is no ways I could prevent an accident from happening (short of not allowing anyone to climb until they have all been assessed for an hour or so - which would obviously impact on profitability).

When I take a beginner climbing in the hills, I make sure I always have another experienced climber with me. It usually takes the whole day to get someone belaying reasonably well (for toprope only). That is a ratio of 2 to 1 while in the gym the ratio is more like 1 to 20 (experienced to novices). So how the hell can the gym say that it is the casual's fault?!
And please can gym management get onto this forum and answer some of the questions. We're all busy, but this is an important issue.

So we have our response? I can imagine that a lot of the comments on this forum may have been irritating and agravating, as a result their response was focussed on these issues and did not deal with the real constructive questions and suggestions which were made.

I agree with Hector ASSUMING that their staff is competant is negligent. I can understand that their isnt huge money in running a gym, as a result I would expect that you would have to make the most out of your clientele, charging small subscriptions and no maintenance fees cant be the best move. I also cant see that buying static rope and gluing down the carpets will break the bank, the main ingredient is effort not money. They say they have been running the gym for ten years, maybe thats the problem - they're tired of it?

Butterflypig (excuse me explaining what may be obvious) - generally people use gyms for the following reasons: they dont have the time to get outdoors (accessibility); its raining outdoors (so it has to be indoors) or the cant get outdoors during the week so they climb at night (it has to have lighting). Being positioned in Cresta will probably be good because you might also pick up school kids who dont have there own wheels. Good luck, some competition will be to everyones benefit

A few words in reply to Kya sands \"management\":



Thanks Kya Sands, you are my hero! You have single handedly reared climbing in this country. How can we repay the favour? Get off your high horses- you opened the gym purely for monetary gain! It is quite obvious you have no interest in South African climbing or you would raised standards at that hole you call a gym (PS: You clearly state below that (quote) “I have other businesses who are maintaining the gym and I therefore have little time for that kind of pastime” What exactly do you mean by pastime?




Quite right, I wasn’t there to supervise, but apparently your staff don’t do such a hot job either seeing as you’ve had to fire so many of them for (quote) “makes me wonder what the casuals think they have to do beside studying for their exams, reading novels, sleeping at the gym or playing on their computers, which is also why we fired many of them”
You really need to think about what you’re saying … I find it difficult to believe there have been no accidents, but I guess no-one can back that up. Do you even perhaps know what goes on in your gym, as you have little time for that kind of pastime?

We are all aware that accidents happen. But there are unforeseeable ones, and there are preventable ones. It is the preventable one’s which are YOUR responsibility and, I don’t care how much you think you’ve done for South African climbing, are completely inexcusable!

So, as it goes for the nil accident policy- I would fully expect there to be some unforeseeable accidents (as at any climbing gym i.e. City Rock), so I can only assume you are blatantly lying to us… Thanks for the honest reply!



Perhaps a little management, guidance and intervention on your part as “management” would steer your casuals in the right direction. Unfortunately, we do not live in a world where expecting someone to do something is sufficient. People need guidance, but, once again, you have little time for that kind of pastime?

How exactly did the client (you mean climber I assume?) not know how to climb the route and setup a top rope (The most basic of all basic climbing skills) if (as you state lower down in your sermon) “according to our casual is not a beginner at all”

[quote]The casual on duty the day of the accident is a very good climber for many years and member of the mountain club for many years, he forgot he signed a job description which we still have and felt he did not have to check the safety which makes me wonder what the casuals think they have to do beside studying for the

Sounds to me like this forum discussion is a waste of time. As Mark said it seems that Kya Sands managment really don't care at all if their gym was closed down, the guys who own it are probably tierd of it and have other buisness running.

I just had an idea while typing the comment, why not just ask them if they want to sell, maybe this will be beneficial to everyone. Personally I hardly ever climb indoors and couldn't give a rats ass but it sounds like you are all fightning a loosing battle.

Dear Kya Sands management,

Here are a few helpful hints, from a climber to a gym owner:
(1) When someone has an accident at your gym, don't blame 'the casual'. Rather take responsibility, as you hired the casual, and the accident occurred on your property and as a result of your property. If you fail to adequately train/certify your employees, it is not their fault, but yours.
(2) When members of the climbing community are so unimpressed with your gym and actions that they are forced to complain on an internet forum, then there are problems with said gym and actions. Rather than spit out an immature response that looks like it was written by a six year old, how about asking for constructive suggestions? Hell, I gave you R600-odd for a membership that hinged entirely on a non-existent but promised bouldering wall (yes, I specifically asked, and the casual specifically assured me, but you freely admit that there is no bouldering wall, and no offer was made to refund me, especially since you stopped answering my emails and phone calls), so I think I'm entitled to feel that it's the least you could do. Consider me a dissatisfied shareholder.
(3) Programs such as Microsoft Word and Open Office have spelling and grammar checkers, and the use of these ensures that you don't come across as a half-witted six year old playing the \"I know you are, but what am I?\"-game.

I anticipate your response.

Dom

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the fresh prince of darkness