Justin, can we get a go-f***-yourself-bigotted/judgemental/bitch emoticon?

http://www.archaeologysa.co.za/images/u ... no_2_1.pdf

Decide for yourselves whether bolting through the ceiling of this cave is appropriate, or not.
Just because an activity is "legal" it isn't necessarily the right thing. Or is it?

So,

Following the mindset of this finely educated debate I would then state that,

1) because of the cable station,
2) the litter on Table Mountain,
3) the all to sophisticated "I-will-do-as-I-please-and-middle-finger-to-you-all" attitude
4) and the lack of clearly demarcated fence/signs

because of the above I can tomorrow take a drill and bolt Roulette.

That seems to be the temperature here.....

ok, ok, I intentionally stirred with my "demography" slander, as I too have place my share of bolts

What a dreadful pack of hyenas, this was something they were waiting for, ready to lunge; talk about haters.

Matt is a motivated and driven climber who I know to be sensitive and respecting. He assessed the impact and clearly thought it to be minimal, and I trust him. The place is scarred and litter strewn, with only two redeeming features: 1. Some amazing artifacts have been found there in the ground. 2. There is an 9b project in the roof; in their own way these are both culturally significant and surely both can co-exist?

Matt, hats off to you for having the vision, go for it. Forget about the hating hyenas.

Haters, go help Matt clean the place up, what a brilliant idea.

Andrew

Just a thought, if the bolting situation at Peers Cave is seen as a problem then why hasn't the whole area been designated as a trad area? There are many bolted routes around the same area so it seems unfair and illogical to pinpoint one person's bolting position over another. It comes down to point of view. If it was "illegal" to bolt there then no bolting should ever have taken place anywhere around there. This is obviously not the case. It's not like anyone here bolted a line through bushman paintings.

ADDED: In the interim it's come up that Peer's Cave IS a sport climbing area and SAN Parks has given permission for this. It must also be noted that no rock art or ground deposit has been disturbed. Funny that this route was bolted a year ago, it was loosely mentioned in a previous forum largely in a positive way but no one even cared that much to make a thing out of it.

Big up Andrew P. Nice post.

I thought the guys just talking was bad. Now it seems there's more opinions creeping out now that we have the facts. You should have put your cars on the table while the game was on. It's easy knowing the rite thing to say when you have all the facts. Kinda spineless if you ask me.

This should have been over 5 posts ago.

Hyena 's!Damn right!Hann , jumping to irrational conclusions wont solve the debate but only make the fire bigger.Build a bridge get over it and apologize to Matt for your earlier comments.Seems it is easier to blast someone on a forum then picking up a phone ,Hahaha , man UP

Not quite dude, not quite.

We all clip bolts, we all enjoy it.

What I am after is:

I you want to place bolts, then great, fine and thank you for the trouble and expense.

However:

There is a responsibility associated with said action.
Be it safe bolting practice: Placed properly, correct bolts etc.
So that other climbers do not die/get injured if they fall on the route.

There is also a second responsibility to bolt in the accepted way:
Establish the historic/archaeological/legal/ecological impact of your bolts.

Bolting a Sand Stone bridge of a Free State train railway is one thing.
To place the same bolts on the Union Building is something completely different, whether or not you voted ANC or have an appreciation for Sir Herbert Baker architecture.

If you cannot differentiate between the philosophical argument of where and how to bolt against haphazard bolting then please refer to my "unintelligent" post.

Oh, and @ODW
Not once did I accuse Matt of anything. I actually came up for him in saying that he was not born yesterday. Giving him the benefit of the doubt that he is wise enough NOT to have bolted as acused by others in this topic.

i called matt bush today to ask him to post something because what i was reading really horrified me. i am really glad he did. Pony, Xharlie, Xenomorph, Hann - maybe you should apologize here publicly for typing before thinking. i would be intrigued to read if you have ever actually bolted a route or whether you are just arm-chair keyboard bolters.

this problem of ill-informed posts is rather wide-spread. a lot of forum posters seem to shoot their mouths (or fingers) off and this becomes a bigger problem for the whole climb.co.za forum community. it's telling in a way that matt is no longer interested in the forum rants and raves - many people are losing interest because there is so much garbage on it. not sure what the answer is. censorship and justin deleting stuff? naming and shaming people? ignoring the ignorant posters? or do we take stuart's approach and just try and pick out the good stuff amongst all the rubbish?

Confiscate all the criminals climbing gear and banish him in totality from the climbing community.
Then hand him over to the police.

????????.Hann , did you not write insert above?I would be very irritated if a person hiding behind an alias calls me a criminal for bolting @ a known sport venue.I think all accusers must make amends

Oh the emotions.....

Hann is my real name. Since about 5 years of age.
(Oddly confusing if big guys calls you Hannie, though, hey Spike )

Let’s reread this tread before it again becomes a pick on Hann evening....








Whether or not Peers cave (the heritage part) has been bolted I do not know, nor actually care.

However,

If you have an argument in favor for bolting a national monument, now is a good time to air it.


Am I the only person here capable of abstract thought?
Oh, that was rhetorical.
(Rhetorical means: I don’t expect an answer. I only wish you to think about it)

One arm-chair-never-bolted-anything taking exception at a bolter's attitude ...



The Good (can any good ever come from this thread?)
The Bad (Derek Marshall: pleasure takes precedence over anything else, bolt wherever he likes, whatever he likes and excretes filth - sies man!)
The Ugly (Hann: incites, destructs cooperative dialogue)

The Innocent (Matt Bush. Really? Does a bolted line nearby justify anything? "Sadly an important part of the Capes' archaelogical history that could have been preserved for future generations has been left to the ravages of the weather and vandals who deface its walls with graffiti" And a bolt ladder then? Clearly the place is of archeological significance.)

The Forum (Everyone dragged to the level of the LCD. A place where one hounds the other without ever facing them)

The Despondent (readers of the forum, should one even respond to this?)

I have been blind, but now I see.

Snort, I was naive. I did not think climbers with such mindset as Derek Marshall even exist. I cannot climb the grade, but am willing to jumar behind if you need a hand chopping.

Derek you are right , nobody can do anything about your bolting except when you dare tress pass on holy ground. Bolt as you like but expect no respect for your style.

_________________
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

Out of the choas of this debacle has come a few interesting points that I wish to mention in the interests of a progressive SA climbing culture:

1. In order for a forum to be constructive it needs to be mannaged properly.

2. Proper mannagement entails, forum rules which protect users from "swearing" and "hate speech" and unfounded allegations.

3. Contravention of these rules should lead to warning and upon repeated misgression banning from the forum.

4. I am part of European forums on climbing and this is how the are run.

5. You are free to say what you want but must be held accountable for what you say. I have stopped forum discussions on climb.co.za because of this fact, there is little accountability for those who do not speak with there names in the open.

6. The reason why intellegent people seldom partake in the forums is because they have better things to do than be lambasted by others who use this space as a personal vent for personal insecurities.

7. The road ahead presents a fork, the forum continues to run as it always has allowing humiliatory and instigatory emoticons and hate speech to continue thereby remaining immersed in the filth and squalor of mindlessness....

or

8. It rises up out of this mess and changes to become a well mannaged forum, protecting its users from abuse so that those who have genuine and pure interests in climbing can band together and continue to make constructive differences.

The choice lies at the hands of mannagement.

To which I pose the following questions:

Are we not missing out on a golden oppourtunity to lift SA climbing consciousness to a new level by allowing mindless speech and emotional venting to dampen the vibe of the forum?

What example are we setting for foreign climbers who read these forums to find out about the SA climbing community? Are we showing them that we are incapable of running a forum efficiently and effectively? Are we showcasing SA Climbing as a fragmented, parasitic, cancerous growth or a open horizon of possibilities with beauty beyond words?

and furthermore:

What about the kids, your kids, the up and coming generations of youngsters looking for examples to follow? What example is the forum for them, what are they learning from reading what is on here?

9. If there is no change to the mannagment of the forum, it will loose the participation of the most active members in the Climbing Community. This would be a shame because the forum presents itself with the possibility of fostering climbing solidarity and cohesion. A vehicle for the evolution of ourselves and climbing.

10. Finally, thank you Lyal, Andrew, Olaf, Robert, Bergman, Guy, and Stuart. You are on my Wall of Legends. I value your opinions and enjoy your posts because you are all good people and write from this goodness with logic, reason and accountability. The climbing world needs more people like you!

Climb Strong
Matt

Fair enough.

I apologize for inciting remarks intended to rise the and divide community into those pro bolting and those against.

Yes, I have opened and bolted sport routes.
Yes, I have opened trad routes.

Note, Matt, that not once did I accuse you of anything.
Note also, Matt, that I spoke in your defense:



However,

Of the following I am not clear:

1) Did somebody bolt a route on a heritage site?

2) Did he/she follow the prescribed channels and get the required permissions to bolt?

3) Who is this bolter?

If the answer to 1 is no, and the answer to 2 is yes then I commend person of point 3 and believe you set a good example.

But,
If the answer is to 1 is yes, and the answer to 2 is no.
Well then, no matter how much we swear, or voice our opinions here, nothing we can say can set a worse example for the climbing community than the person of point 3 did.

Food for thought.

What was the straw that broke the donkeys back in the closing of Bosch Kloof?

Henk, please glue closed the holes on any routes you chop. Which won't be many, chopping requires effort & commitment. ...more that bolting

What gives ANYBODY the right to drill into rock on any property that doesn't belong exclusively to you?
There is a kak attitude in a part of the fraternity that is on par with taxi drivers and toyi toying strikers etc.

Matt is absolutely spot on about the all too frequent unpleasant tone on this forum. As a result I barely scan through the posts anymore. Some of the aggresive, foul, language has absoutely no place here.

Re. Peers Cave itself, and other similar incidents all around the Cape, I had hoped that we as a climbing community were begining to agree that archaelogical sites, in general, were pretty much off limits for bolting. I think it's a reasonable request, irrespective of the official, legal, status of the site.

I can well imagine that many well meaning climbers are entirely unaware of the significance of many of these sites to non-climbers. We have had issues at Peers Cave before, and are currently having other access problems in the Peninsula, so let's be very careful about where we place bolts. Of some concern is the perception that non-climbers (including land managers) gain of climbers in general when we, perhaps unthinkingly, leave our scars in these grey, very public areas.

"Since the 1940s attempts have been made to have Peers Cave proclaimed a National Monument. This was not done, chiefly because all archaeological sites are protected by the National Monuments Act and are thus de facto national monuments. "

- From the article: Peers Cave, The cave the world forgot. By Janette Deacon and Mike Wilson

Extract from the

National Heritage Resources Act, 1999

http://www.dac.gov.za/acts/a25-99.pdf

Clause 35 Archaeology, palaeontology and meteorite
(4) No person may, without a permit issued by the responsible heritage resources authority—
(a) destroy, damage, excavate, alter, deface or otherwise disturb any archaeological or palaeontological site or any meteorite


Clause 51 Offences and penalties
(1) Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, any person who contravenes—
(b) sections 33(2), 35(4) or 36(3) is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine or
imprisonment or both such fine and imprisonment as set out in item 2 of the Schedule


SCHEDULE
PENALTIES FOR NATIONAL HERITAGE ACT
(Section 51)
2. A fine or imprisonment for a period not exceeding three years or to both such fine and imprisonment







I ask again:

Was an archaeological site bolted?
By who?

If so that person needs to be reported to the authorities to face the legal consequences.

I suggest the MCSA take lead in this.
I shall contact the MCSA Rock Subcommittee myself on Monday.

Gees Hann you seem like you'll only be happy when someone gets fined or jailed. Clearly this whole situation is a grey area and needs to go through the correct channels without threats.

This route hasn't been bolted out of malicious intent or as a vandalous act. You're trying to paint someone with the wrong brush.

Authorities should clearly mark out what is and isn't an official protected heritage spot. No one really seems to know what is going on with the official rules and it hasn't been made public knowledge so the responsibility for enlightening the public is also on the authorities. Why have any routes in that area been allowed to be bolted? Why were there existing bolts on the route already? Maybe these things should be cleared up first. Table Mountain and Lions Head are known and obvious trad areas and so climbers have respected that. This would be no different, with a bit of communication.

Surely ANY bolting without specific permission is tantamount to malicious intent or as a scandalous act?
Have Sanparks and other custodians of public land given blanket permission for bolting?

Lyal, your loyalty is admirable. (sincere, not sarcastic)

But as a top SA climber one automatically becomes an opinion former and ambassador for the sport.
If anybody should be advocating the adherence to the established regulations it should be the top climbers.

And ignorance is no excuse. As an adult everybody is responsible for his or her own actions.

“Do not have the right to climb on any cliff…”
“Discuss using the crag with the landowner….”
- Page 10: Western Cape Rock

“At present no further bolting is allowed at the crags”
- Page 43: Hellfire Guide

“Before bolting at Paarl Rocks, please contact the MCSA for proper procedures”
- Page 15: Paarl; Rock, A Climbers Guide

ClimbZA Bolting Questions & Guidelines
http://www.climb.co.za/forum/viewforum.php?f=13
A whole section dedicated only to Bolting

"Interfacing between climbers and landowners, e.g. the facilitation of all new sport-route applications across the Cape Peninsula"
- From the MCSA website: http://www.mcsacapetown.co.za/activities/hiking-and-climbing

You guys are killing me!

I laughed the whole way through the first page!

Some of the later stuff wasn't so funny though...it got all serious & one of those whingers who doesn't think your opinion is legitimate if they cannot go & confront you in the shopping centre started up...

No I am not a TROLL! That is also rude & offensive

The rest of you guys are brilliant though & I thought one of you got the whole thing sorted; there are two types;

1. selfish self centred types who do everything only for themselves & their immediate posse
2. People who care about the whole climbing community, environment & how their actions affect others

Now I have always been told by others that Peers cave is a worthless climbing venue, so maybe you have elevated the whole area....but it does appear that a bit of consultation would have prevented all of this hilarious mudslinging...unless of course you knew that people would object & so you did what you wanted to....hmmm are you an uncaring SOB Matt? Only you know that answer...

but otherwise next time look before you leap & everyone won't come down on you from a dizzying height.

Hann I dig your agro! Don't mind all the schoolgirls, they have no passion!

& as for Marshall the obsessive & aggressive bolter...you are hilarious...I just hope you leave some trad climbs behind in you crusade to bolt every piece of rock ...P.S. Use stainless 316 bolts for the ones that are covered by the tide

_________________
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

I am a young climber, one with lots to learn, in need of role models - and some strong leaders - to set good examples. I consider Matt Bush to be on of the best.

Ever heard the phrase "Climbing is a way of life" ? When i started climbing, the most attractive thing about the sport were the people and the values and morals that they lived by. I want to be part of the climbing culture that has things like respect, friendship, joy, love of the outdoors etc. as the basis for there interaction with others.

Climb za is where the climbing community communicates, yet most of the posts are solely to slander others or to make "intelligent" comments to show off self presumed intellect.

I know of at least 10 young climbers that look up to Matt. He spends time with them, encouraging them, giving them confidence and teaching them - by example - good character traits. He has opened up many lines all over the Cape and is pushing grades most people can only dream of.

He leads by example and he leads well.

Again, as a young climber, one with lots to learn, in need of role models - and some strong leaders - to set good examples, Please wake the **** up.

Funny how the slander and negativity comes from the people using pseudonyms. Grow a bit of spine and put your name behind you views. Yes that means you Hann.

On the positive, your posts indicate that you are obviously quite a good researcher and I am surprised that you have not come across the management plan for sport climbing in TMNP.

That document (signed by SANParks) clearly lists Peers Cave as a sport climbing area. So I am really not sure what the fuss is about.

_________________
There's no point being pessimistic, because it probably won't work

Very well.
Where can I get a copy of this plan?

Also, where can I get a copy of the document giving TMNP over-ruling authority of national laws?


It is also interesting how you change your statements:

I would assume you mean that the archaeological site is not bolted.


Let me state this once again as it seems many has jumped on the Pick-on-Hann bandwagon.

I do not know what is bolted at Peers Cave.
I did not accuse Matt of anything.
On a philosophical level I am stating that one cannot bolt where and when ones sees fit.

But yes, I will take this matter further. It will be reported as well as the statements of Matt claiming ownership of said route.

If it turns out to be nothing I will be happy.
If a law has been broken then an example needs to be made.



Once again Guy, Hann is my real name. You and I have never met.


2 questions:

1) What if bolts has been placed illegally? What example does that set for bedfordj?

2) And again, how was access lost to Bosch kloof?

The Management plan is available here: http://dombeya.sanparks.org/assets/docs ... imbing.pdf

The main reason for all this anger, vitriol and mud slinging seems to be the lack of distinction between Peers Cave - the rock massif with sport routes bolted on it and Peers Cave - the archaeological dig site/de facto national monument situated within the rock massif.



So the route is not in Peers Cave (the archaeological dig site) but rather in another cave situated in the larger rock massif Peers Cave.

However, according to the Management Plan p14:


@Matt Bush: Did you have permission to bolt your route? If you did why did you not simply say so in your first post? If you did not have this permission, why was it not given? And finally, if you did not get permission before bolting your route, are you aware that you may possibly have jeopardized ALL climbing in TMNP?

_________________
Happy climbing
Nic

Environmental Management Programme for Climbing on the Peninsula Mountain Chain June 2000

http://gklinux.sanparks.org/parks/table_mountain/library/EMP_climbing.pdf

Page 14
• Archaeological sites
Archaeological sites are not to be disturbed. No route will be approved if it has a significant effect on the content of an archaeological site. The location of all archaeological sites at existing venues and measures to protect these sites are listed in Annexure 3.

Extract from
Annexure 3 - Location of Significant Archaeological Material at Sport Climbing Venues
Peers Cave is listed with:
1) Rock Art – preferably do not climb withing bounds of the site.
2) Artefact Scatter – Preferablt keep away from them completely.
3) Deposit – As above.




I ask again:

Was a archaeological site bolted?
By who?
Please present the approval papers.