Thank you Nic.
See, I was right to be missing you.

Bosch Kloof closed due to change of ownership.The new owner did not want people on his land , that is why lego land is still open(not on his land - lets close that can of worms).
The question on my mind is the outcome of all this and how this will effect Matt and the community???I am not pro-bolting , nor am i pro-development.With a looming land reclamation act in the pipeline , voilent striking due to unfathomable low wages , the Karoo being torn up for gasses , suburban development destroying places of ancestral , cultural and environmental significance , unimagineable living conditions for the poor and a whole lot more political and environmental catastrophies happening in SA alone , not to mention the rest of the world.Hann man , try out a REAL cause that will actually make a positive impact on peoples lives , because the hole you uncovered is going to affect everyone in the community negatively.You havent even been to the site in question to get all your ducks in a row!!!!. Remeber that you are choosing to go after him on a forum.Take legal action if you want to and CONTACT him through City Rock.Its the respectfull and professional thing to do , if you want to take this further.I hope no one on this forum enjoys this head hunting tactics , AGAIN it gets everyone talking about the divide and negativity in the community.I hope next time something happens where legal threats are being made they'll have the common decency to pick up a phone and CALL the person in question.
Oh yeah , Spike.Comments about taxi's and striking quite funny.Seems there is a genuine lack of understanding or you were just on the right side of the fence ,HAHAHA.Dont expect you to understand the sport either with that mind set.
Love all the rational positive comments.
Peace out

Just to get the facts straight...

Incorrect: Boschkloof (as we call it) has not changed ownership.

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Climb ZA - Administrator

Oh my, this is so blown out of all proportions, talk about making a mountain out of a molehill, if anyone from the body that regulates these things visted the site they'd probably take one look at the route and say ''what, bolts, climbers, what are they? hmm, not worth even getting my notebook out" and go eat another KFC meal. FORGET IT. Nothing will ever come of it except maybe a nice 9b in a spot with a bit of cool history.

IF ANYONE ADDS ONE MORE POST TO THIS ONE AFTER MINE (OR STARTS A NEW THREAD ON SAME SUBJECT) THEY ARE ADMITTING THAT HE/SHE IS A TOTAL DICK.

Excuse me, but I'm looking for the forum on flashlights?

Access to climbing venues in the Cape (and around the country) is a sensitive matter. The recent Redhill/Coppermine saga is a good example of this. This climbing community needs constructive conversation around access and related matters.

Bolting in contravention of the SANP Environmental Management Plan could seriously jeopardise climbing access in the Cape.

Before accusations fly, let's ask three objective questions:
1. Is there a new route on the Peers' Cave Massif? If so, could somebody in Cape Town please post a photo of the route and its location.
2. Is the Peers' Cave massif subject to the SANP EMP on climbing on the peninsula?
3. Was the SCWC approached for permission to bolt said route?

These questions are material to our ability as a community to self-regulate our activities, and consequently to our continued access to climbing venues.

PS - if constructive conversation gets me labelled, these are labels I'm proud to carry.

Here is a pic of some of the bolts in question - photo by Mario & Jahne:


You can see the image in larger size here (just click on the image to make it bigger).

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Climb ZA - Administrator

Which cave is the one on the photo at Peers Cave?
Was permission granted to have it bolted?


Further more:

I have a e-mail from Ron Brunings of the Montagu Mountain Advisory Board to Mr Mokweni Municipal Manager of the Langeberg Municipality

In this mail the archaeological significance of a cave in Bad Kloof are discussed:

"The cave is of considrable heritage / archaelogical merit..."
"....7 entire "plettenburgs" buried within Badskloof Gorge...."
- extract from an email dated March 29, 2011 from Ron Brunings to Mr Mokweni.


My questions is:

1) Is Bad Kloof cave bolted?
2) By who was this cave bolted?

@ Justin: Will you please post a photo of the cave?
I will forward you the particular photo.

The letter below has been sent to the MCSA.
I leave of this topic but will monitor further relevant information and circulate it to relevant authorities.

____________________________________________________________________________________


Dear members of the MCSA.

Currently the rock climbing community has come to the suspicion that illegal bolting may be happening in the sensitive areas.

Under discussion is one at Peers cave.
The second is at Bad Kloof, Montagu.

One or both these sites may be in archaeological areas protected by National Heritage Resources Act, 1999

It is my understanding that both these routes need approval from either the Montagu Mountain Reserve Committee (MMRC) or the Environmental Management Programme for Climbing on the Peninsula Mountain Chain June 2000.

It would be much appreciated if the Rock Subcommittee, and an Archaeological/Conservation Subcommittee could look in too the matter soonest.

Below I post the link to the online forum for information.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7409&start=30

I am sure you are aware that if these suspicions are proven to be true, it could have a major impact on access to all climbing activities in the Western Cape.

Jeez, you really love shit stirring don't you

What are you hoping to achieve other than stir up hassle and ill feelings?

Hann you are been so petty and mean it is pathetic
This is so un-called for and it makes me sick!!!

Matt bolts the hardest route in SA and all you do is aim all your energy to getting the bolts removed. What is wrong with you! Do you have nothing better to do in life than sit behind your keyboard and fight with fellow climbers on the forum. I always thought that climbers were friendly, supportave people who stuck together as a community, but clearly there are some exceptions who want to cause as much crap for everyone else as they can.

Look at the posted photo. There is graffiti all over that cave. The graffiti looks FAR WORSE than a few bolts! Have you thought about maybe diverting all your energy to catching the graffiti artists who descacrated your precious peers cave shrine. I assume not. No because the bolts just look so much worse than the graffiti...

Are you jealous that you didnt get to bolt the hardest route in SA? Well maybe if you got off your computed and did more climbing than typing you could also go bolt a 9B.

9B is a huge step in SA climbing.
Dont go report the route.
If there is a leagal issue, let Matt sort it out, but for goodness sake, to go report the route, how low can you get!

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Super Mario

Hi

All the crags in the Cape Peninsula fall into the TMNP or are on private land and as such being allowed to climb there is a privilege and not a right. This privilege can be taken away and crags such as Lakeside, Silvermine etc can be closed to climbing. (see the thread on bouldering at Redhill, if you do not believe me)

Currently we are allowed to climb and bolt new routes if we obey the rules. These rules include asking for permission before bolting a route at any crag. If all the climbers obey these rules then we will continue to enjoy the privilege of climbing at these crags. If we do not obey these rules the TMNP and private landowners will be totally within its rights to ban climbing entirely (this is what happened to the Lost World crag).

This is not specific to Matt's route, it applies to ALL the proposed new routes/crags and ALL the existing crags. If you are a climber then you have a responsibility to the rest of the climbing community to obey these rules so that climbing as a whole is not jeopardized and all we are left with is boulder problems on Newlands Bridge and City Rock.

So again I ask, Matt did you have permission from the MCSA Rock Subcom to bolt your route?

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Happy climbing
Nic

I think that Hann might actually be doing the right thing, even if he has come across in this thread as an idiot due to his comments made in the beginning. The community of climbers need to regulate what each of us do, as access is not our right but a privilage. It is something that one person can mess up for everyone. If we as climbers are seen as proactive when the rules are broken even if it is in a graffitti ridden polution filled cave, then we can be trusted by the land owners to self regulate and consequently can keep our access to these places. The rules are the rules when it comes to access even if the rules are wrong or stupid. Bolting without the correct protocal can jepordize the access for everyone.

This is my opinion and I reserve the right that it could be different to yours. I also like to clarrify that I do not know Hann and that I do not think that he is an idiot, but calling sports climbers unintelligent was an idotic thing to say while trying to deal with a serious issue.

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Fat men are harder to kidnap

@mattbush, thread participants, please accept my apologies for my first post - it was a rant without any evidence at all, rash and harmful.

I have never bolted anything but take great pleasure clipping the bolts all over the cape peninsula and surrounding areas. To all of you who take your time to bolt routes: thank you.

I am interested to know if any provisions for an "Illegal Ascend" is made for on the 8a.nu scorecard, within the context that climbing has inherent risk and danger factors, surely an IA should add some weight to any scoring of an ascent.

IA's should surely be part of the South African climbers' repertoire, as South Africa is well known for the prominence of most things "illegal".

Laws are fundamentally flawed and ill-constrained, thus transgressions are inevitable, however not necessarily implicit of a wrongful act.

Or whatever.

@ Hann. Good on you, taking a stand and making it more than just a rant. This is what I would call, looking out for the future of climbing. Someone has to keep order. Now they will think twice before just placing bolts.

Garvin

@EVERYBODY LOL, the climbing community in SA will kill itself because its filled with fools. Before anybody quotes me... Ebert said: "filled with fools" no this doesnt mean everybody, just the fools, dont you think one of South Africa's top respected climbers knows what he is doing? Jealousy makes u NaSty, nasty makes u FAT, FAT makes u UgLy, point being, oh sorry, just like this forum, there is no point. Just be quiet and take one of these....

Ebert Nel
@Matt, dude i hope u send:D dont let all the dicks on the dance-floor ruin ur moves:D c u soon man

@Forket,

We climb in TMNP under a set of rules - like it or not. We break those rules and TMNP can shut down climbing in the peninsula, full stop. Both Nic and Wayne explain this well.

Asking whether a new route sits within these rules is a legitimate question. It's not a personal attack on the bolter. The point is to ensure continued climbing in the peninsula. I reckon that's a pretty important point.

@DavidWade,
It's crap that TMNP pay more attention to a few bolts than to all that graffiti, but unfortunately that's the way it is.

@Guy,
Was Peers' Cave ever approved by SANP as an "Existing Sport Climbing Venue"? Is this route within the approved venue?

If I understand the rules correctly, every single bolted route in TMNP has been approved prior to it being put up?

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Super Mario

@BAbycoat

Did u read the heading (I made it clear, the one in the BIG RED CIRCLE, the smaller one of the 2)? Im quite sure its a tad out of line since ITS NOT A QUESTION and as stated earlier, wrongfully accusing someone of something is known as SLANDER and that is illegal. In the pinkish purple circle we have incorrect facts if i dont have it wrong since its not the main cave, i didnt even circle the heritage site part since thats also apparently not actually one? In the lumo GREEN circle we have swearing, how does this come across as following the rules of the forum let alone asking someone if it was in their rights to do what they did?

So point being, yes i understand what u have to say, but what u saying isnt what the person said for they did not ask, they accused....

Ebert Nel
If you want to know something, ask nicely, we all learn the hard way, but what i dont get is why people must be mean?

No, routes bolted before the park was taken over from the City by National Parks (I cannot remember exactly when this was, early 2000s I think) were subject to a "grandfathering" programme. Only routes bolted subsequently have been subject to the approval process. For instance the entire Topside crag and all its routes were applied for (by Guy Holwill et al) and approved by the Rock Sub Com.

As far as I know, no application for a new route has ever been turned down.

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Happy climbing
Nic

Thank you Nic!

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Super Mario

@Forket - agreed that Pony was accusatory; but the thread has moved on and the question still stands.

The following has been brought to my attention in a mail I received:

http://gklinux.sanparks.org/parks/table ... imbing.pdf

Quoted from the above link, The Environmental Management Programme for Climbing on the Peninsular Chain Mountain:

"4.4.1 Existing Sport Climbing Venues
The Sport Climbing Working Committee (SCWC) will maintain and make freely available
to SANP full details of all routes in existence at existing venues.


Exempt venues
Certain venues will be exempt i.e. new route activity will not require the prior permission
of the Committee. These venues are to be determined by the Committee and SANP
within 2 months of the commencement of the provisions of this Management Plan.
Venues falling into this category have been suggested in Annexure 2

Annexure 2: Climbing Venues

Existing Sport Climbing Venues
The Mine
Peer’s Cave
Trappieskop
Silvermine Crag

We need clarity from MCSA if SANParks/TMNP did give exemption for Peers Cave and under what conditions.It appears that certain areas may not require approval either by the committee or SANP


Whilst Peers Cave is/was an archeological site you would be hard pressed to see the remaining rock art and the line bolted does not cross or damage any such art as per the EMP document. As for damage prevention most climbers take these precautions anyway.

My suggestion is that all should go and see for themselves the state of the Cave.

This is a Cave that is truely forgotten except when its been used to divide the community.

@lyal: I truely love people like you, thanks alot for clearing the issue. You set an example to us all:D

I think some people ow an apology to matt and any other person badmouthed without full information.

Ebert Nel
---------
go send that route matty

Despite all the vitriol, the ill conceived comments, the personal attacks and the mis-information, this is probably the most important thread I have ever read. Although there may be some self serving individuals that have participated in the debate, what I take out this "debate" is that there are a lot of climbers that really care about climbing and maintaining access to it. And then there are climbers that care about preserving some things like heritage sites.

Peers cave, even though it does have some interesting climbing moves, by any standards does not even merit a mediocre status as a climbing venue AND also not as a heritage site for a variety of reasons. To say the least it lacks stature for climbing, and as many participants have stated, it has been blasted and defaced for years. And quite frankly I personally don't think it matters a damn whether there is a bolted boulder problem or a 9C+ route there, or whether there is some dark hidden major archaeological relic there.

What does matter is that there are people who are concerned about making a challenging new hard route and taking up the challenge (please don't try and convince me it is world class!) and on the other there are people concerned about preserving a heritage site (again, please don't try to convince me it is world class). At best, any route there and any heritage value is less than mediocre compared to any standard. Except!!!! by the beholder! And that is worth fighting for. Both!

Since climbers arrived at Peers cave, long after it was blasted, they are the only people who have really added and extracted value from that insignificant little outcrop. (there are thousands of much better looking little outcrops all around the peninsula, never mind The Ledge).

The fact that some much passion can emanate from such a piss willy little bit of stone is really cool.

And this brings me to my point.

Lets make the rules, stick to them, enforce them and make sure we protect the really important "world class" climbing areas in South Africa like Milner, Yellowwood the Cederberg, the greater TMNP, Rocklands and elsewhere.

Awesome post Snort. Well done.

Hell yeah! What Snort said! Both sides have valid points! That's what I see when I really try hard to look at this thread objectively, and I must point out that all the personal mumbo jumbo makes objectivity brick hard.

We all care so much about climbing, we need to be brothers and sisters here, a united front, all trying their very best to comply and look out for one another by following as much of the rules as possible and trying really hard to put yourself in the other guys(Matt, Hann) or gals(Rachel) shoes.

My two cents anyways...

is it really so hard to just drop the subject?