Gotta love this forum. 17 guys chime in and suddenly its the "climbing community".

zb

zb dude,

The pictures have been viewed 520+ times.
It's an open forum, if you've got anything relevant to say.
by all means 'Chime' in.

"So with the consent of the climbing community,
I will contact Andy next week and see if I can borrow the ARF angle grinder."

Just do it... if it matters that much. Consent is for pimps.

Hey David,



I don't want to spend a lot of time explaining to you how the internet works, save to say technically 1 guy could have viewed it that many times. So its an irrelevant metric



I think I *am* saying something relevant, but if you want me to elaborate; This forum is frequented by a small section of the climbing community. If we're going to have a go at anyone for making a unilateral decision with out consulting "us", then I think we should be careful about what we call "the climbing community", when its really the same 10 guys that chime in every time.

For all we know he/she was at a party with 10 climbing friends and this came up and everyone agreed that a bolted stance was a good idea.....maybe they said to themselves...."oh, with the consent of the climbing community....I'm going to bolt that stance".

Basically this forum (and certainly this thread) is not what I'd called representative of the climbing community.....its a lynch mob.

If you want representation then take this to the MCSA or ARF.....the conclusion may well be the same (and I'd support them).....but don't tag my name onto "the consent of the climbing community" based on < 20 guys having an informal chat.

zb.

Hey ZAbullet I reckon you are missing the point, Bolting is not allowed on Table mountain it's a national monument. That information is easily found on the Internet and is known by most if not all climbers! Why should someone else have to go to the effort and work of removing bolts that weren't allowed to be placed there in the first place!

If it came to light that climbers are brazenly ignoring the rules and bolting where and when they please there is a chance that it could jeopardize access to climbing areas. That would affect the climbing community.

Going after Dave about such a stupid point when he already mentioned he was going to speak to the ARF makes no sense to me. I know Dave, he's a cool guy and definitely has the climbing community's best interests at heart.

Neels Havenga

Ps I'm not home at the moment but I'd be more than happy to take you up Table Mountain

Hey Dark Horse,

No time for a long reply....off to climb on TM.....don't worry, I won't bolt anything....



FWIW I wasn't having a go at Dave....and if it was construed as a personal attack....I apologise.

zb.

i do think bullet raises a very good point.
we - the active members of this forum - often think that we actually make up the climbing community of SA.
that's just not the case.
some rough thumb-suck numbers:
my guess is that less than a quarter of active outdoor climbers visit climb.co.za regularly.
520 views on this post is probably just 52 unique IP addresses.
my guess is that cape town has over 1,000 active outdoor climbers. so 5% know what we are talking about. that's not exactly a quorum for any decision-making.
for the record, i do think these anchors are pretty thoughtless. you can't abseil off them and you can't belay off them. but chopping them is rather a big decision not to be taken lightly.
why dont we give it a month and maybe we will hear from the person that installed them.

Robert,

I don't think the argument holds that because the entire climbing community
of Cape Town don't regularly visit climb.co.za. that there should be a lack of action.

It is a fairly well known platform for issues arising within the local climbing scene.
I'm not just going to chop bolts, (the way they were placed).
If the bolting party or anyone for the bolts wants to make a case for them, this would be the place.
Unless you'd like to hang a sign up at City Rock? I'm not aware of any other way to advertise the issue (for free).

So, I'll amend my statement, "With the permission of the climb.co.za forum".

The government make decisions for the people of South Africa, all the time.
Even though only a percentage of the population vote and even less pay any attention to parliament.
not that this forum is a parliament, or that the climbing community has any kind government.
5% of the Cape Town community
(of which, What percentage climb on Table Mountain, and have any interest in 'Arrow Final's Bolted Anchor')
I think is enough for me to drag my arse up there and hack those bolts off.


Zb - Dude,

Apology accepted.

Andy Davies (2nd post) is a representative of the ARF.

I promise I won't tag your name onto anything.
I can't, I don't know who you are and you don't seem to be either for or against those bolts.

Thank you for not bolting Table Mountain today.

I think action should be taken and the forum is a good place to inform and air opinions, but it is a poor place to make policy.

MCSA and to some to degree ARF are our Representatives. The matter is theirs to decide on as far as I'm concerned (correct me if I'm wrong).....I'm not sure how that channel is engaged, but I'd stand by any decision and action they made. So if they say chop, then chop.

I'm ashamedly *not* a member of the MCSA, but I do feel they have my best interest at heart. If we want to affect policy it should be through them, not through a forum.

zb.

No, I'm with Derek on this. Dave, you need not even ask the community's consensus. Chop it, then talk if you must.

There are lower offs right around the corner. Bolted stances is not the norm and accepted practice on TM. It has not been for generations and should never be.

Also intrigued as to why this was done in the first place? The person who put them up should man up and explain himself.

_________________
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens

ZA flavour!

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At the chaaaaains boet!!

There we go! I've taken care of one of them! Anyone care to go up there and finish it off!?

I don't see what the big deal is. There are bigger things out there, that matter more.

But if these two bolts matter to you so much; chop them & it would be nice to cover over the old bolt remains with a spot of glue. Chopping requires effort & I'm not convinced that the bleaters have the commitment to follow through. Lets not let consensus be an excuse.

It seems to me that the overwhelming majority vote is chop them, more consent & discussion isnt needed. Sure not everyone who climbs checks this forum, but I bet over 50% of climbers who care about the sport, read it. Today is Monday, any volunteers to get them out by this time next week? Use some Pratley's over the hole and you will never know they were there.

OK was hoping to watch silently from the wings but I feel too strongly obliged to give my 2c.
Chop them. Chop them even though it makes ugly scars on the rock. Chop them because if we don't make a stand now, then its going to be a free for all in no time. That story about cockroaches, that is exactly the problem. This started with small things. Abseil anchors for the commercial guys-OK. Lower offs in strategic places-OK. Chains and rungs to help gapers kill themselves even higher up on the India venster route-OK (well actually you might guess correctly that I am not exactly a fan). So far the actions involved at least some level of community consensus. But then the slippery slope from individuals- a judgement lapse from a well known and respected climber adjusting the rock to his route, and now someone doing his own thing with a drill (and not even a good job at that). If left unchallenged, it will not be long before there are bolts all over that mountain. So we need to decide where to draw the line, and we need to draw it now. There is enough bolted rock elsewhere. Do we reallly want TM to be riddled with bolts. There is a place for bolts, but not here and not now. My vote is to stop the slippery slope right now. Chop them

Then on Sunday you walk into Yellowwood n chop New Born- but only after sending it a la Cesare Maestri

Jokes!

_________________
If you aren't willing to solve your own problems, how can you expect others to?

Well said Dragon! I agree we must chop 'em
I am more than happy to head up there midweek with someone and undo the darstardly deed

Brent, if you do go up there to get them off, try sticking a power-bar through the eye of the P and twisting real hard - if you're lucky it'll break the glue and the whole thing will come out. Or maybe just break the bolt off in the hole, without a lot of hammering or grinding

These bolts need to go.

I am very intrigued to know why someone thought this would be a good idea and the expectation that the bolts would not be chopped!?

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Climb ZA - Administrator

You think it will fit? Take the wrapper off first? Any specific flavour?

Good idea though, might be lucky, nothing to lose.

hak hak hak... not the energy bar

See below:

This is tricky,

This forum cannot represent the entire climbing community; but it does allow for discussion on the topic. and take many more opinions into account than the moron that put the bolts up.

Wouldn't be surprised if its some gun-ho European that cannot believe TM isn't bolted yet...
check: Jacob's Ladder 17 (B,15) ***** coming soon...

Dave assuming you aren't pulling our collective leg, to me these bolts don't appear to be placed by climbers. For a start most climbers would know not to bolt there and secondly they would place bolts properly.

Furthermore, my thinking is that if these bolts were placed by climbers:

1. they would have been placed on lead and the bolts would be intended for stancing. That doesn't appear to be the case here. These holes were drilled on tip toe with difficulty. This doesn't look like a stance but like an abseil point;
2. they would have used expansion bolts for immediate use, not frigged around with chemical anchors for later use;
3. they would have climbed up from below and you will therefore find a similar bolted stance another pitch down.

My guess would be that this stance was placed by the cableway company, or abseilers or someone with a specific mission (like doing a photoshoot or cleaning litter from the crags below).

If you make a trip up this week why don't you (or anyone else for that matter) talk to the cable car people and the Abseil Africa people (Trevor Ball's business).

Lastly, to ask the obvious, since no one else has - does anyone know who did this and why?

Hilton your logic is sound.
If it is the case, I hope we are not in for a turf-war.
Whatever happens will surely set a precedent!

Imagine a world where someone has the balls to say "my bad it was me i bolted them cos i took my gran tradding" imagine that! The guy oviously didnt care what we thought when he bolted them so why should we discuss about removing them? Lets just go up there and remove!

ps

But maybe only one person should do it! Will look silly 40 or so climbers heading up with battery powered grinders and crow bars might look a little dodge!

Hi All,

I just spoke with Trevor from Abseil Africa and an engineer at the Table Mountain Ariel Cableway. Neither have any knowledge of the bolts.

Justin

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Climb ZA - Administrator

After the last post in which I was falsely accused of ‘Illegal Bolting’ I thought I would remove myself from the forum and enjoy a life of climbing without politics.

It seems wherever humans gather there emerges politics, which is nothing more than a self-proclaimed righteousness to govern the acts of other and judge them according to values constructed to suit personal agendas.

I believe value systems are worth holding but not those which judge the acts of others without seeking facts. It is easy to judge others without the full picture and stand on a moral high ground while doing so.
It takes greater intelligence to seek the facts and represent the case in entirety. We must shed the light of awareness on the issue pending – Table Mountain Bolting.

This is why I am writing. It is important to live life responsibly and to make decisions consciously. Some of you would argue that the bolts on Arrow Final are placed without due reason. But let me assure you the reasons are valid and logical.

1.The bolts serve the purpose of an anchor system for two 140m static ropes that run the entire length of Arrow Final.

2.I am not in support of reckless bolting. The bolts placed on Arrow Final serve a valid purpose although not used in a traditional climbing method.


3.I have used them to rid Arrow Final of loose rock that endangers climbers and hikers on Table Mountain which has been my worry since the blasting of the Natural Heritage to make way for the commercial venture of The Cable Way.

4.In addition to clearing up the site I have a personal interest in sharing the climbing experience with those who are of less privilege and experience than ourselves. These being individuals who have no belay or seconding experience.

5.The ropes allow me to guide novices (ie people who have no climbing experience) up Arrow Final in safety. I have received feedback from clients that this experience is one of a lifetime. I have guided climbers from all over the world up the rope system and I believe in the positive value of the experience.

6.With regard the issue of “Setting a Precedent.” I am aware of about 50 bolts on Table Mountain. This being a humble guesstimate. These bolts serve the interests of climbers for safe lowering from existing routes. The bolts on Arrow Final have been placed for the purpose of safety and this is in accordance with the other bolts placed on Table Mountain.

7.To deal with the issue of the bolts scarring the natural rock – the bolts were placed on a scarred blasted site.

8.It has been my intention to replace the poorly placed bolt and place another bolt in the drilled hole to the right, but I haven’t been able to do this as yet.

9.If there is a law that prohibits bolting on Table Mountain then all bolts placed after this law ought to be removed regardless of MCSA-ARF bolting sanctions.

10.I will gladly remove my bolts if this law stands and I will gladly assist setting the Precedent of a ‘Bolt Free Table Mountain.’

11.All these decision need to taken by MCSA as representatives of climbing after considering opposing arguments and not by the forum or individuals who proclaim themselves representative of the community.

12.I am happy to meet with MCSA and those people who wish to chop the bolts on Arrow Final. We cannot have a double standard allowing some bolts and not others when they are placed for similar reasons of safety. I am willing to fight for the right for the bolts to stay.

13.We cannot have random bolts placed on Table Mountain. Arrow Finals bolts are not random.

Some may see me as a sport climber with a sporting mentality. I have climbed many Traditional routes on TM and in the Cederberg including the ultra classic Celestial Journey. I am in support of the Traditional Ethic of climbing on Table Mountain and in Traditional Climbing Areas.

Considering my reasons above mentioned, the bolts on Arrow Final are not random but planned and considered. The bolts have allowed people to experience the magic of climbing on Table Mountain who otherwise would not have.

I do not read or reply to forum posts. If you would like to contact me you can get hold of my number at City Rock.

Regards,
Matt

Why not just use a few cams and wires?

soppy excuses!

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Since I started climbing I developed a big crack addiction.