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SNORT
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 2:50 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Never attack the person, just the deeds.
The reasons stated for placing the bolts simply don't wash with me.

It appears that the person who placed the bolts are guiding people on static ropes? It is stated it changes their lives? Same as bungy jumping, the Cobra at Ratanga and abseiling or zip lining or quad biking perhaps? So what happens when climbers doing it the traditional way arrive to do Arrow final and there are two static ropes hanging down with a bunch of “underprivileged” novices who happen to enough money to pay for the privilege of hanging around all over the face. Abseil Africa is bad enough when you climb Roulette or Captain Hook. Is there then a booking system for the route? People often solo it including me.

So the person who placed the bolts, de facto, has a commercial interest in all this? It seems that these “under privileged” people who probably have not even bothered to walk up table mountain – which is free – are being charged for the privilege of “climbing" it? What are the selection criteria for this privilege for the underprivileged people other than what is in their wallet?

My life was changed many years ago by climbing. I was about 15 (37years ago) and took sisal rope, tied it around my waist, made slings of same stuff and almost killed myself climbing around the Suikerbos rand. That is what changed my life and still does. I went back many years later and found the one route to be solid F3. I “bought” climbing because I wanted it. Nobody had to sell it to me.
My life was not changed by being guided by anyone or paying for it. It seems only the under-privileged that can afford that.

Does anyone really think this is the way to get people climbing? Rigged and canned? Where is the adventure and the skill and the art in all this? How low can one go with this?

I have "guided" hundreds of people climbing and never been paid a cent for it and never needed static lines and bolts for it. It is not what climbing is about. And certainly not on TM. All I can surmise is that emanates from Rock'nRoad rigging on TM. It comes as no surprise.

These acts really suggest an outrageous sense of entitlement. Is there no stopping it?
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Dark Horse
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:13 pm 
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Posts: 132
Location: cape town
@Matt I'm not at home so I can't call you.... But I feel it would be a waste of time..

So in case you do actually read this.

You really disappoint me bro, you really do come across as a self righteous brat. I know I'm stealing the line from cool runnings.....again.. But whether you are the shit hot best climber in the country doesn't change anything in my eyes... A wanker stays a wanker.

I know I shouldn't be writing this but recently my girlfriend told me to get a back bone, stand up for what I believe in and now and then call a spade a spade even if it hurts someone's feelings.
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mokganjetsi
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:15 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
well, maybe snort & matt can chat about this one at city rock :thumleft:

i would hope to stay clear of the argumentative bog of bolts vs. no bolts; what constitutes a majority & who or what represents the ill definied "climbing community". i do think however some effort should be made to consult knowledgable climbers before bolting at all in a sensitive area. given the presence of other bolts for our convenience (& safety) on TM i cannot find a fundamental fault in matt's reasons, but i think there is some wisdom inconsulting with others to get their view on it. who these "others" are can be debated forever but methinks it would be easy to come up with the names of andy & hilton davies; snort and a couple of other people who has been around.

btw, i'm going to bolt "heart of china" next time i'm in boven. object now or otherwise its drill time! :rambo:
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Edge
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Real Name: Rag Muffin
So let me get this right, Matt decides to put Bolts into a classic route on TM. He has not got permission to do so, and from where I sit it was purely for his own benefit, to make it easier for him to guide so random client.
Does this mean it is now free for all.
I have opened a route on TM and man a bolt or two would have made my life a lot easier, mmm. Perhaps I should head back with a drill seen as no one takes any action against a blatant disregard for the law. Should there not be some repercussions to his actions !!

I say a chop n dop party
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Scott
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 3:40 pm 
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Real Name: Scott Miller
I think the main point to remember, and Andy or some other enlightened person can clarify, You can legally place bolts on TM if you have the proper permission, As ARF got when they redid the abseils.
It is not illegal to bolt on TM BUT it is illegal to bolt on TM without the proper permission. It seems that Matt did not have the permission so they should be removed on those grounds. We dont need to debate it or reach a consensus.

I do think if Matt feels strongly about it he should apply for a permit and express his reasons and see if he can legally place a stance where he did. Although Matt placing bolts without permission should be heavily weighed in the decision to let him place bolts legally as well as the fact that as pictured it looks like he didn't do a very good job of bolting glue ins in the first place. Oh and that fact that he seems to be a wanker for doing it in the first place. ( I'm not name calling just agreeing with dark horse, he calls em like he sees em!)

But as stated above we shouldn't say that all bolts are illegal, only bolts not legally placed.

cheers
Scott

If we really want people t get out and experience TM in a non technical way lets put up a via ferrata. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_ferrata
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Dark Horse
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Location: cape town
I'm only qualified to say wanker because I am one too...
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GBM
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:49 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Grant Marinus
OPEN LETTER TO MATT BUSH

Dear Matt

Your email suggests that having given considerably thought to the rock scaring and loose rock and the needs of non climbers ("clients" you call them) you decided to place these 2 bolts so that you could facilitate, amongst others, a safe climbing experience for all. You say that you have had feedback from clients that this was an experience of a lifetime and that you have guided climbers from all over the world up “the rope system”.

When exactly did you place these bolts?

I know you say you don’t read forums or reply to forum posts (you managed to read the last 6 days worth on this topic it seems) but this short and simple question is an easy one to answer.

If you don’t get this will someone at City Rock who does read this please ask him to answer this one for us (and post his response) so that before I draw any conclusions I can have a more comprehensive understanding of the relevant facts.

Regards

Grant Marinus
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David Vallet
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:09 pm 
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Posts: 54
Thank You Matt for helping us to understand this.
(It does take some balls to own up to it.)

That you don’t participate in the forum, doesn’t really wash . The subject is being debated on the forum, read the forum.
The MCSA and ARF are.

So now, just so that we all understand this.
You’re doing What ?

I’m curious as to how you manage the ‘guided climb’ safely, from a profession point of view. although, we’re from different schools and associations.
There’s no precedent in AMGA guiding, for this form of guiding in this sort of terrain, with that sort of client.

All sounds pretty dodgy to me.
How about some details?

There is a very big question I always ask myself.
Am I acting outside of the manufacturers recommendations and guide lines?
If I am, can I justify the action?
(Would the manufacturers say it can be used like that, in that situation)

David Vallet
AMGA certified Rock Guide.
AMGA certified Alpine Guide.
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Wayne73
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:01 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Bolts may only be placed if authorised by MCSA, so as the application was not made the bolts must be chopped, so that the rules are followed regardless of the validity(/bullshit) of the reasoning behind the bolting in the first place.

_________________
Fat men are harder to kidnap
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Ross Suter
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:10 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
I'm shocked to hear/ see that there is a bolted belay on Arrow Final. Those bolts were not there when I climbed that route with a client on Sat 15th Oct (or I didn't notice them, despite climbing right past them - unlikely?). I feel that they must be chopped asap and will even volunteer to go and do the job. This kind of thing must not be allowed to happen on Table Mountain ... beyond the bolted abseil routes that are already there.
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Adnan
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:49 pm 
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Posts: 10
There's a good system in place for approvals, although some of us feel that this is already as far as bolting on TM can be pushed.

Matt flaunted this for his own agenda, and failed to justify his actions after quite a grandiose climb onto his soapbox. Even so, there should be repercussions for those that try to justify such actions AFTER the fact (e.g. towards further bolting permits).

I didn't make much sense of the guiding 'system' he's using, so won't question it here, but it seems to me that if you can't make that stance safe with gear then you shouldn't be guiding, at least not at a trad venue.

Nobody should have to ask if its ok to chop illegal bolts (or debate it after). Matt forfeited the debate option.

Dark Horse, dude... I have to take serious issue with your first post. You got it totally backwards. Climb in the mornings and surf in the afternoons! Watch the sun set over the waves and wash the blood off... hope we’ll see you back in town soon!
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Spike
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:14 pm 
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Real Name: Spikarillo
Prosecute :evil:
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Marshall1
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:57 pm 
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Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
Perspective
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Hilton
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:28 pm 
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Posts: 195
Matt you're a sweet kid but you got this horribly wrong.

Unless someone beats me to it, I will chop these bolts. And if you place new ones, I will chop those.
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Rob P
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:49 pm 
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Posts: 25
@ Ross. Chop them. I am certain that if you pulled the consensus off the forums, most people are for the chop. I certainly am.

Or why doesn't someone not even bother talking about it? Why not chop them in the same discreet fashion they were put up. No feelings hurt, no more nonsense and no more bolts and you don't have to own up for a good deed. haha. Then everyone can get on with going climbing.
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ClimbRat
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:05 pm 
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Real Name: ClimbRat
Come on y'all.Ross Suter climbed right past them and didnt notice , do they stand out that much.Dave and darkhorse - get rid of all the illegal bolts on the mountain if you want your cause to not sound like another " i'm standing up for what i believe in , but couldnt really give shit about the environment just my priviledged activity" .I can think of so many other bolts that fits your criteria , like the bolts on Quake - must they go too?Can everyone agree on the forum that all bolts must go , or stop talking about it! Since Dark horse already admitted he is a wanker , and said matt is a wanker , that makes every guy that ever bolted on TM a wanker , i'll leave it in your hands dave for you to also realise .Acceptance is hard i know , and maybe you're an awesome bloke , but man you come off as a podge kisser.Jocks like you guys make me wish i didn not like trad so MUCH.Bolted stances and mixed routes will never destroy our beautiful mountain.Thousands of people leaving urine bottles and bags of crap behind like in Yosemite is a problem but our mountain is no big wall mecha , and it is doubtfull that will ever happen.Dave , calling something dodge when you've had a serious accident on TM and know what risk climbing anything presents ,hypocritical!!
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SNORT
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:46 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:53 am
Posts: 777
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
The bolts are one thing, the purpose is another.

Fixed line guiding ? Up Arrow?

In the last 30 years I have "guided" my own kids at age 10 and 7, Two other kids age 11 and 9 an at least 10 adults - all complete novices up Arrow. For free. Nothing needed other than a few nuts and cams. The kids did not even have harnesses.

No fixed lines are needed. They completely misrepresents what climbing is about. It is no more representative that Abseil Africa's little game.

Life Changing? Gimme a break.

Those bolts are there for a self serving person who is trying to make a quick buck by giving people cheap thrills or rather expensive thrills.
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ant
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 12:21 pm 
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Posts: 208
There is a well established law, and a well established ethic on both bolting, and on guiding.
(Particularly on TM, particularly on historically established routes)

There is also a clearly established process for exceptions to those laws and ethics - same applies.

Anyone who pretends they don't know this, particularly someone who is going to go and bolt or guide, is clearly either brain-dead or giving a middle finger to everyone else, and there is not enough rock in the whole of Africa for that kind of behaviour.

The impact that this action has on climbers in the eyes of peer stakeholders, and on "guides" in the eyes of peer stakeholders, is disgraceful.

Whoever gets there first to remove them - I agree.
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ClimbRat
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:42 pm 
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Real Name: ClimbRat
Not enough rock in africa for that kind of behaviour.Really?Get out more , we have the most virgin rock in the world on this continent!!!I find the whole debate from a non climber perspective very interesting(although i climb , i tried another view of the situation).Abseil Africa got permission as i understand , and there are a fair amount of top anchors on the mountain. Whether it is for a guides needs or a climbers needs is not relevant , it seems like there is a double standard on the mountain and that should be the real debate!!!!I would hate to see 2 bolts getting chopped , but would love to see EVERY BOLT CHOPPED on the mountain.British grit is a good example for us all , no exceptions.Just a thought , - if abseil africa and the ARF never got permission to bolt on the mountain , would that not send a clearer message about bolting on the mountain and say something more punctuated about South African ethics?Think about it
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David Vallet
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:47 pm 
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Posts: 54
Climb Rat,

One could argue that because I’ve had a serious accident on T.M. I’m even more aware of the Hazards that mountain presents.

The whole point of a mountain guide is to limit and manage the dangers of ‘climbing anything’, not to add to them.

If there's an accident and No other professional (in this case ‘climbing guide’) backs your system, methodology and technique up.
You could be in a lot trouble.

I’m not even sure as to how he’s going about it.
Fixed line guiding? With 140m static ropes?
On a wondering ‘grade 5’ rock route like “Arrow Final”?
For beginner climbers?

Is that what Matt’s doing ?

He’s not just fixing the lines to those bolts and letting them run down over terrain like this is he? I mean there must be something more to it.

p.s.
My client escaped any injuries. Thanks in part to a technique we call short roping.


Attachments:
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pillick
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:54 pm 
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Posts: 96
I don't know Matt. In fact I don't know most of the people in this thread. I fail to believe that Matt would think that something like this can be justified. I actually think he is taking the piss out of us all. In fact I hope he is. If he isn't, this is a dark day for the climbing community. Is Matt even certified as a Mountain Guide?
His statements are blatant and antagonizing and does not justify the need to place the bolts as there is natural pro right there.

I think he is trolling for sensationalism.
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d0nK3y
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 1:58 pm 
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Real Name: Craig de Villiers
Climb rat, I think what Ant meant by that is that it is not behaviour that is sustainable in a climbing community! Try not to read so literally!

On the permission issue, I don't see any "double standards"... Both abseil africa and ARF got permission through the appropriate, well defined, and accepted channels to place bolts where they have placed them... Matt did not... (as far as I know) Simple enough isn't it?
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Hann
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:04 pm 
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To be honest I have read very little of this topic.

But I understand that Matt Bush has claimed responsibility for placing the bolts on Arrow Final.

I will read the topic properly, and, if warranted, will make it my mission to have Matt Bush prosecuted.
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Marshall1
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:23 pm 
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Real Name: Derek Marshall
Prosecuted for what? It's going to sound pathetic when you explain it an outsider. It is pathetic.
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mokganjetsi
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:28 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
well, this has regretabbly the potential to get out of hand (in many ways). climbrat, your arguments of either-black-or-white has gone down the tuBe the day (very long ago) when the 1st bolts were placed on TM. nothing stops us of:
1. sticking to the correct protocol / ethic
2. exercise good jugement
3. consult people that has an interest in and proper understanding of the matter

as much as i like matt he's gone out of line here. we accept this then the next thing is a hanging belay bolted on jacob's (and sommer top-out anchors as well while we're at it). no one has the right to go out there and just do their own thing on TM, period.
the bolts has to be chopped
hopefully one of the elders can have a good talk to matt about this debacle
hann, please don't prosecute matt
that's all
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pierre.joubert
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:29 pm 
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Posts: 660
mattbush wrote:
After the last post in which I was falsely accused of ‘Illegal Bolting’ I thought I would remove myself from the forum and enjoy a life of climbing without politics.

It seems wherever humans gather there emerges politics, which is nothing more than a self-proclaimed righteousness to govern the acts of other and judge them according to values constructed to suit personal agendas.

I believe value systems are worth holding but not those which judge the acts of others without seeking facts. It is easy to judge others without the full picture and stand on a moral high ground while doing so.
It takes greater intelligence to seek the facts and represent the case in entirety. We must shed the light of awareness on the issue pending – Table Mountain Bolting.

This is why I am writing. It is important to live life responsibly and to make decisions consciously. Some of you would argue that the bolts on Arrow Final are placed without due reason. But let me assure you the reasons are valid and logical.

1.The bolts serve the purpose of an anchor system for two 140m static ropes that run the entire length of Arrow Final.

2.I am not in support of reckless bolting. The bolts placed on Arrow Final serve a valid purpose although not used in a traditional climbing method.


3.I have used them to rid Arrow Final of loose rock that endangers climbers and hikers on Table Mountain which has been my worry since the blasting of the Natural Heritage to make way for the commercial venture of The Cable Way.

4.In addition to clearing up the site I have a personal interest in sharing the climbing experience with those who are of less privilege and experience than ourselves. These being individuals who have no belay or seconding experience.

5.The ropes allow me to guide novices (ie people who have no climbing experience) up Arrow Final in safety. I have received feedback from clients that this experience is one of a lifetime. I have guided climbers from all over the world up the rope system and I believe in the positive value of the experience.

6.With regard the issue of “Setting a Precedent.” I am aware of about 50 bolts on Table Mountain. This being a humble guesstimate. These bolts serve the interests of climbers for safe lowering from existing routes. The bolts on Arrow Final have been placed for the purpose of safety and this is in accordance with the other bolts placed on Table Mountain.

7.To deal with the issue of the bolts scarring the natural rock – the bolts were placed on a scarred blasted site.

8.It has been my intention to replace the poorly placed bolt and place another bolt in the drilled hole to the right, but I haven’t been able to do this as yet.

9.If there is a law that prohibits bolting on Table Mountain then all bolts placed after this law ought to be removed regardless of MCSA-ARF bolting sanctions.

10.I will gladly remove my bolts if this law stands and I will gladly assist setting the Precedent of a ‘Bolt Free Table Mountain.’

11.All these decision need to taken by MCSA as representatives of climbing after considering opposing arguments and not by the forum or individuals who proclaim themselves representative of the community.

12.I am happy to meet with MCSA and those people who wish to chop the bolts on Arrow Final. We cannot have a double standard allowing some bolts and not others when they are placed for similar reasons of safety. I am willing to fight for the right for the bolts to stay.

13.We cannot have random bolts placed on Table Mountain. Arrow Finals bolts are not random.

Some may see me as a sport climber with a sporting mentality. I have climbed many Traditional routes on TM and in the Cederberg including the ultra classic Celestial Journey. I am in support of the Traditional Ethic of climbing on Table Mountain and in Traditional Climbing Areas.

Considering my reasons above mentioned, the bolts on Arrow Final are not random but planned and considered. The bolts have allowed people to experience the magic of climbing on Table Mountain who otherwise would not have.

I do not read or reply to forum posts. If you would like to contact me you can get hold of my number at City Rock.

Regards,
Matt
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ClimbRat
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:35 pm 
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Donkey , i got what he said.Having climbed in the silvretta mountains in europe , where trad and sport are not segregated like here.You get a lot of mixed and traditional routes and its been like that for a long time without serious impact or degeneration of the mountains , but it is not allowed to bolt lines that can take gear. That is their law. Mokganjetsi , valid point , as a lot of peole pointed out though, there is a law.I completely agree with a NO bolting ethic , but TM started getting bolts a long time ago regardless of the law that was in place. Bolting still happened in direct contradiction to the law , whether it is approved is irrelevant , the law was stated .In any profession or activity where a person is accused and prosecuted but his colleauges are not , that is double standard.I would love to help anyone get rid of all the bolts that has or hasn't got permission to be there and i know of a lot.I also like a lot of you guys believe we need a strong ethic to guide our children and keep the mountain clean.i still believe in mixed routes but only where that style is allowed. Hann , so much pent up aggression , you need to relax or become a cop , Mr Authority.Fruitcake!!!!!!
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Hann
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 3:48 pm 
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ClimbRat wrote:
Fruitcake!!!!!!


Perhaps you are right.

However:
Access is sensitive. Any one person who is jeopardizing it should be taken to task.
Especially if that person is a opinion former and leader within the climbing community.

I would like to enjoy the mountains.
I do not want to sneak in and climb because all climbing has been banned at my favorite venue.
(As has happened at Bosh kloof, Lost world, Sea Side, Karbonaatjies Kraal)

If legislation says that it is ok to bolt TM, then by all means do so.
But, status quo is that it is NOT ok to bolt TM.

What message does it send to the up and coming climbers if one of the best climbers in the country not only ignores the rules of WHERE you can bolt, but also bolts is BADLY?
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SNORT
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:02 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
I spoke to Matt today and he is convinced that what he is doing is OK. He sets up 2 fixed lines and novices or near novices self-belay using two devices, one of which is a shunt as a back-up. He chose Arrow because of the angle. He believes his methodology is tried and tested and safer than standard guiding.

There are two issues, one is the anchors and the other is the reason for them being there.
Ethics and negligence have commonality. In medical mal-practice cases we apply the Bolam Test and this is a good point of departure to establish whether what he is doing is unethical or negligent. (The Bolam test has also been used in litigation cases in other professions). It states:

“A doctor is not negligent if he acts in accordance with a practice accepted at the time as proper by a reasonable body medical opinion, even though other doctors may adopt a different practice”.

The opposite also holds true.

Context of course is an imperative consideration and what applies at Montagu or in the Dolomites does not apply on TM.

There is no body of climbers that I know of, and they certainly have not made themselves known on this forum, that accepts what Matt has done. There is clearly a body of reasonable climbers that find that what he has done is wrong.

There is no track record in South Africa and particularly not on TM and specifically on Arrow final of anyone climbing or guiding commercially or otherwise with fixed static lines and auto-belay devices.
By these criteria he is behaving unethically and if something goes wrong and a client is injured he would be at grave risk of failing the Bolam test and be found negligent. It would also negatively affect the standing of the climbing community at large.

I also wish to make a disclaimer that CityROCK does not sponsor Matt. He is sponsored by equipment suppliers. He is a paying member and occasionally sets routes. We do not provide reception or secretarial services for our members so please do not phone CityROCK for his details. Send him a PM.

It is also against our policy to give out details of our members to the public. We would fail the Bolam test if we did.
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Hann
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 6:28 pm 
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Considering Snort's post above, could the sponsors of Matt please come to the discussion.

Perhaps the sponsors will be in the best position to take action.
Perhaps, if said bolts are found to be unethical, they can revoke all sponsorship.

So who sponsors Matt?
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