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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:36 am 
CNC is now renamed CapeNature (www.capenature.org.za). The National Parks Board was renamed a few years ago to SA National Parks (SANParks). Both organisations want to generate a new image, no longer just \"looking after bokkies\" but providing opportunity for exciting outdoor activities such as hiking in Wilderness zones, climbing, mountain biking etc. This is probably because of cuts in government funding so they are looking at generating more revenue from visitors. The point I'm making is that these organisations are more likely than ever before to embrace the idea of sport climbing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:36 am 
Yep, i agree with the contention that the 'authorities' are more likely to embrace the concept of climbing nowadays. This is why we've had such good success in recent negotiations. They no longer view us as a 'radical fringe'of misfits; we try to present the image of responsible land-users, concerned about the environment, but keen to get out there and crank on all the awsome rock available. They will work with us. They are working with us. However, they have a mandate to protect and conserve the environment as well, and are thus concerned about possible damage that could occur if bolting is not regulated in some way. A specific example: someone bolted some lines, without consulting anyone, in a cave that has archaeological significance. Now, Parks don't know about it... yet. If they find out they will freak. The bolts may need to be chopped, but my point is, the bolter probably didn't know, and probably would have accepted and understood, if they had just ASKED someone. And it would have avoided having to unravell the mess, avoided the risk of Parks finding out (oh, and they know about the significance of the cave), and avoided all the hard work of putting the bolts in in the first place. Negotiation is slow, i know - i get frustrated to the point of distraction sometimes. But i urge, if you must go out and bolt illegally (and i do NOT recommend you do so) that you keep it very low key (ie don't spray about it), camo the bolts, bolt safely, respect the wishes of the traddies and leave trad areas alone - if in doubt, make discreet enquiries about trad-like areas. Oh, and CNC have got a lot of rangers out there in the field. Sure, you can probably evade them, but it just takes one incident, and believe me they will close climbing access there altogether, and this will c0ck up a lot of hard work that a bunch of us are doing, on your behalf, behind the scenes. Again, i'd be happy to chat to anyone about any of these issues over a beer or the phone. cheers.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:36 am 
Yo Stu, I guess I gotta respond. Firstly Messner says \"Bolts are the murder of the impossible\", kinda self explanatory. He also goes on to say that \"carrying bolts is like carrying your courage in your rucksack\" – if that’s your beat… On another note, I'm told that one can't judge an area until you've been there (the latest issue of \"SA mountain and hill walker\"). So my proposal is, go and send your tick list and then you should be able to answer your own question - ultimately climbing, in any form, should be for yourself. Whether others will or won't climb your contribution to our scene should be irrelevant - the rules and ethics have been set, go find your own interpretation. As you have my email add, mail me if u want - as I'm not always online to sift through the disturbing state of the nation.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:37 am 
Tristan your views are as outdated and defunct as 'Mountain' magazine edited by anti-bolt fanatic Ken Wilson who Im sure is your hero. Never-the-less the whole point of bolting a route is for others to enjoy it in safety. You can go and risk your neck if thats what rocks your boat, but there are a growing majority of us who do not wish to risk our lives or limbs for a fix of adrenaline. If land owners want our money then they had better get their acts together smartly. Weve waited so bloody long already for any sign of movement in their standpoint that one wonders if the progress made recently is just too little too late. I for one have lost patience, I have held off bolting on their land through ten long years of moratorium and now find that although the moratorium has been lifted in places I still cant bolt where I want to, even though we applied for permission right at the beginning of this whole process. Its pathetic, so Im firing up the bosch whether they like it or not. I have removed more alien veg at said crag than CNC have in the last five years, from where I stand they dont appear to be that concerned with preserving the area. Brent please e-mail as to the exact location of this archeological site so that I dont spray any more steel at it, even though I cant for the life of me fathom how putting bolts in the rock affects what remnants may still lie buried beneath the soil. If this area is where I think it is then I should have been informed of its existence when I originally applied to bolt there as I was quite specific in my application to the sport comittee where I intended to bolt.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:37 am 
Ahh I love my scroll mouse. I can whizz through all this garbage and quickly post my two cents worth and still have time to head down to the local for a pint. (and you okes thought I was going to say \"climb a route\"). Have fun typing....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:37 am 
This forum certainly has caused a stir, and after reading everything, I think Derek probably said it best: \"We all have our turn at throwing and being thrown at\". There is no way to please everybody Stu, but the fact that you are willing to but your neck on the line to give some other guys some fun is really cool.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:38 am 
Stu, best check a map of the area for the exact extent of the Limietberg reserve, certainly the walk up is on the Gewonden farm. Traddies I know you guys would love to keep this crag to yourselves but having had a look at the wall there are lines where the rock is totally closed for entire pitches. Are you really that brave? Sorry but I dont share your opinion about this wall, although I definitely do not advocate bolting over a line that may reasonably go on trad, several attempts at new lines on this wall in recent years have been repulsed by super serious unprotected climbing. Sounds awfully like an ideal place to establish more sport routes to me!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:38 am 
After having read and spoken to various people, I think I will take my neck off that chopping block. For now the idea will be put on hold until more people have been approached, especially the relevant trad guys. This is after all their playground. However plenty of other Crags started out this way and there is already another bolted line there. The newer generation of climbers have different ideas and it would be sad to see the only new routes to be opened on 25m high rock. Change is inevitable, hang on it's already here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:38 am 
Greg Gri Dude, you know me well enough to know that I clip lotsa bolts - in fact I just recently returned from the 'Boven rally sans placing an iota of natural gear and rate it as 1 of my best trips! If you had done a bit of digging (not the archaeological type) it would have become apparent that Messner's comments were made in a Mountaineering context. I consider the Du Toits Range as a prime mountaineering arena for people to learn or push their skills. The fact that there are dozens of better suited \"sport walls\" around that have neither been tradded yet or are non conducive to tradding nor are established mountaineering areas, should be reason enough to deter from a bolt-line that, in all likelihood, will meander all over the place just to avoid natural placements.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:38 am 
Hope you didnt take too much offense Tristan dude, I was on a rant spawned from years of frustration of trying to work within the shitstem and create sport routes legally. Basically its virtually impossible! Sorry that you were in the firing line when I let that volley rip. Messners comments are so old though and were made in a book he wrote in the context of a five meter difficult section that he had to climb without protection. Really brave Reinhold!! Anyhoo obviously the sport has come a very long way since then, if only the SA scene would be allowed to catch up! I still disagree with the traddies about Yellowood there are lines there that will never ever be climbed on trad gear, prime candidates for ye old blot machine! You seem to know of other walls that are suitable for sporting that lie outside of the dreaded forbidden nature reserves, care to share the info with us? My frustration levels have gotten to the stage that I am seriously considering moving somewhere where there arent all these restrictions enforced by clueless bureaucrats. Glad you enjoyed a 'sporty' trip by the way.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:39 am 
A suggestion from a friend of mine: Try talking to the scouts association. They own land and have camps in some great areas with mountain and nice looking walls (i haven't seen them, he has). Maybe they're worth looking at.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:39 am 
We checked some crags above Wellington that are accessed off Scout land But the rock was not good. Plus looked at a lot of other places without joy, And yet there is so much still to look at!!! I guess the best is the friendly farmer with a mountain on his land, maybe further afield....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:39 am 
Use to stay on a farm in Wellington and could drive pretty well up to the base, which would probably be a 2 hour walk-in. Wasn't climbing then... Will go check it out.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:40 am 
You guys should move to the Easter Cape. We have way more rock. Farmers are all way friendly. And we don't have CNC...Bisho runs conservation... quite unsucessfully. The rock quality is far superior and the walkins easyier. All is peachy.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:40 am 
Go jump...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:40 am 
Stu I wouldnt bother with Wellington, so little of it is worth anything. We checked out the whole seven sisters ridge and Hugenootkop and apart from one or two patches of decency the rest was bunk. The most promising wall (that looked great from far) overhanging with pockets turned out to be chalk, extremely friable and with all the holds sloping in the wrong direction. Lots of sweat and effort to just be disappointed. Only crags we didnt check were those around the south west corner of Hugenoot peak where apparently someone (Mike Scott probably) did some tradding accessing in from the postal services road. This road is closed to public traffic. The truth is that good crags are a lot rarer than Tristan imagines they are, so anyone with a good solid lead on decent rock on private property care to share their info???


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:41 am 
Derek is right about the Eastern Cape, there is so much bombproof unexplored rock there. Endless 80-100m walls of perfect dolerite all on land owned by some of the nicest and most hospitable people...Bit far from Cape Town but if you can stand living in a place like PE then the world is your oyster!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:41 am 
No more than twenty (20) minutes walk in including a five minute break. I love multi pitch sports routes. BOLT IT


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:41 am 
This topic should be changed to - what's the longest wait you guys would do for a good multi-pitch sport line. So what is happening?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:41 am 
Yeah bugger all this talking and waiting, I wanna climb!! Joined forces with me old mates and are blotting something at a heaven sent crag in the sky, complete with waterfall to rinse off the grime of a hard days work! Only thing is when trying to get permission to go up we discovered the owner (A mr. Hill would u believe!) of the mountain had never before been consulted about climbing on his land, even tho the guys have been climbing there for ages and have already bolted 20 routes!!! All will be resolved shortly tho (I hope). God we are on organised bunch!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:42 am 
Bolt the route. I think there is a place for both trad and bolted routes. Trad is not everyones scene and it would be good to see some decent multi pitch sport routes go up. Climbing needs to appeal to all. Some people dont like trad but love doing multi pitches. Bolted routes are the only way they are going to be able to experience climbs like these. Ill come and do it......go bolting!!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:42 am 
Having spoken to some of the 'old-timers', i have decided not to bolt anything as I would have my balls snipped by these guys as they feel it should be kept a trad area. I can see their point and feel I should respect that. Being raised on both sport


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:42 am 
Hey Stu...one wee line won't change the character of the whole mountain range. But also lets not start catering for sport only wussies. To bad about the bitching regarding S of Time. My hat off to you for all your effort. Eugene...steal a rack if you have to.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:43 am 
Seems like my post got cut off so here it is again. Having spoken to some of the 'old-timers', i have decided not to bolt anything as I would have my balls snipped by these guys as they feel it should be kept a trad area. I can see their point and feel I should respect that. Being raised on both sport and trad I feel this is a pity as it's not like hundreds of lines would go up, but so be it. The trad there is still great though, go climb some. Derek you can't please everyone and someone will always have a complaint. Like I said before I don't want to cause any trouble just want to put up a cool line and have fun climbing it and sometimes i prefer to climb or open a long multipitch sport route over a trad route. But if people have objections well I guess these are well respected climbers and the founders of alot of these areas. There is still some cool lines that are tradable so we are going to go up and open one.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:43 am 
Don't let the \"old-timers\" cramp your vision. How many new trad multi-pitch routes have been opened in the area in the last 10 years? Your efforts at Paarl has helped transform a climbing area that had become dead. It would be great to see what would happen in this area with some innovative developement. How about mixed as option. Bolt the stances and sections that offer no trad. As for walk in time - forget that as a criteria - if the line is quality that those appreciate the line will do the walk.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:43 am 
Spot on Paddy. SA is a mix and match country. Bolt it because you want it, not to entertain sport only wussies. This whole \"get them out there\" mentality, where the focus is on catering for other peoples enjoyment...is not the way forward. \"Some people dont like trad but love doing multi pitches. Bolted routes are the only way they are going to be able to experience climbs like these.\" who cares what they experience? Bolt it for your own pleasure and experiance. Let the rest ly in the wet spot.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:44 am 
I hear you guys. Bolted stances sound like a good idea as they can take up alot of time and organising, though will intitially take up the hand drill incase there is really bomber stances. As for partially bolted well if you drag up a drill then one would be tempted to put in bolts all the time so we'll try to open it trad only, though if the runout's do get too long then we'll put in some hand bolts. I'm not going to go out on a limb on this one unless opinions change. Also with the current relationship between the authorities and sport climbers it looks like we will be stuck climbing on the same old crags for the next hundred years.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:44 am 
And same old routes - but I guess all those old timers angling for your balls are happy with this


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:44 am 
A mixed approach might allow more direct lines. Instead of 3 pitches up, 1 right, 1 up, 1 left, one up one could have 5 straight up with the 4'th being bolt supplamented.


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