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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 4:43 pm 
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I was up at the Sanddrif crag over new years and ran into someone who related that the previous day some GP registered car had been parked in the area with someone illegally bolting on the crag. Needless to say Dawid Nieuwoudt the farm owner is well pissed. The offender was staying at kromriver and with GP plates may well have been a foreigner with a rental?

Just where do these bastards get off thinking they can do this...I hope whoever it is gets whatever is coming to them. It really saddens me that the access to these amazing crags is contstantly compromised by people thinking that they can do what they like when they like... :evil:

anyone have any further info?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:19 pm 
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Location: cape town
Bolting first asking permission afterwards.... sounds a tad familiar... Tell me you are trolling please?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:05 pm 
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Location: nieuwoudtville
Real Name: Albert Smit
Maybe the VF guys had some hardware left after the berg, and they came down South..?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:16 pm 
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So was the route any good. What does it go at? Please send RD.....

....or perhaps they were replacing the bolt that failed.

http://www.climb.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=5043

The mystery continues.

zb.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:21 pm 
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Darkhorse I would love to tell you I am trolling... :(

The bolting was happing on the front of the crag - basically where you walk up to the crag the left wall before you actually head into the gulley itself. There are some new routes there as we saw guys climbing and some suggestion was made that Mike Scott put them up :? so as I understand they might be legal.

But the bolter the previous day did not have any permissions and Dawid Nieuwoudt took the registration and was going to take matters further.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:00 am 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Have drill will bolt.

Have gun will shoot.

Has anyone worked out that this forum is awash with posts of illegal engineering of climbing all around the country! It is a complete free for all.

It is so bad that I know I am convinced bolting anything is bad as it becomes a tsunami. For every good bolt there seems to 10 bad ones.

A VF up the berg over 400m must used at least 100 drilled holds and several tons of cable.

VF's were constructed as a logistical solution in the 1st WW, not for fun:

History in the Dolomites

In 1914 the Dolomites were part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Austria was part of the Central Powers during the First World War. In 1915, Italy joined the alliance of Britain, France and Russia and declared war on the Central Empires. Austria’s troops were heavily committed in Russia and it immediately withdrew to a defensive line which ran through the Dolomites. Until the end of 1917 the Austrians (supported by troops from Southern Germany) and the Italians fought a ferocious war in the mountains of the Dolomites; not only against each other but also against the hostile conditions. In the particularly cold winter of 1916 thousands of troops died of cold, falls or avalanches. Both sides tried to gain control of the peaks to site observation posts and field guns. They also tried to create and control tunnels below the peaks to attack from there (see images below from Lagazuoi region). To help troops to move about at high altitude in very difficult conditions permanent lines were fixed to rock faces and ladders were installed so that troops could ascend steep faces. These were the first vie ferrate.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:13 am 
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Got to say I have some sympathy for the GP bolter. We have a situation where there are established bolted lines and the owner generates revenue directly from these bolted lines - I would have read that as a signal that he was ok with bolting at that crag (especially as it adds to his income earning structure without any cost to him). However, we now know that David would prefer to be asked first, although from experience he can be difficult to get hold of.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:41 am 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Paddy I am sorry to say that your post exactly represents the problem. Bolts beget bolts. It is all about precedents. Thys at De Pakhuys has lost complete control of his land. Yellowwoods have been cut down and the fyn bos is trashed.

And it can only get worse


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 10:44 am 
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Snort - I'm ok with bolts begetting bolts


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:43 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Paddy that's fine but then please don't try play the game both ways like so many people are doing on these forums. To suggest that bolting can be controlled once it starts anywhere is simply hogwash. You make the point that you have sympathy with these guys because of the precedent already set. It follows that once the precedent is set then it's all drills blazing.


Preservation of nature and engineering of rock and even bouldering are mutually exclusive. The dudes involved with the VF in the berg are justifying its implementation by trying fool us into thinking that in so doing they will install controls and behaviour that will result in better preservation of the natural areas than there are at present. C'mon. See it for what it is. It is a cancer all around the world and causing untold access problems everywhere.

I cannot even give the VF guys credit for "good intentions". They are in my view complete frauds and must think that the rest of us are idiots.

Like Matt Bush on Arrow, the Austrians at YW etc it's all self serving.

It's either nature or bolts.... Choose.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:21 pm 
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Good sport lines in permitted areas can be the pinnacle of climbing for me and many others, so please dont use too broad a brush when criticising bolts and bolters. Personally I gain more adventure and spirit and intimacy with the rock (those moments of absolute clarity) though my sport climbing, not through trad which I have done plenty of (4 continents, big and small) though trad is wonderful too (no my accident had zero influence on my feelings, I still trad climb, will be at Wolfberg on the 3rd). I think its just hard for the average trad climber to understand as chances are they have never really been in the last percentile of sustained out of body effort for more than a couple of moves, never mind an entire pitch. Doing a little bit of sport here and there wont give access to the above. Some guys are doing some excellent sport development; Roger and others at Umgeni, JTF at Oudshoorn (Mr. Incredible is a prime example, what a wonderful sequence of moves). The problem is the wayward bolting enthusiasts of which there are a few, slapping in bolts for quanity not quality and with little regard for access and owners, we need to identify who these people are and harrass them; they are giving sport climbing a bad name. So, who are they? I want to harrass them. Andrew P


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 3:53 pm 
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Andrew P, I could not agree more with your balanced sentiments. And I am the last person to tar everyone with the same brush. Trad climbers, however elitist they may appear to be, simply have a much better track record of caring for the environment. I have said it before many times that older guys who cut their teeth on trad climbing including you, and Roger and Andy Davies etc etc, are at the forefront of developing sport climbing responsibly. Not only that, but managing it and doing the maintenance required.

But this is just the tip of the pyramid of an ever increasing base because bolting is so damn easy and allows for such easy gratification. There are hundreds of bolt clippers in the Western Cape under age 30 and yet less than 30 MCSA members (where mentoring occurs and ethics are established) are under age 30. It's just too easy and one does need the avenue that the MCSA and university clubs provided in the past to go climbing.

Bolting, bouldering and now engineering (VF's) is spinning out of control. Look at what Matt did on Arrow and he is anything but contrite. He is a good climber and should be setting ethical standards. He is convinced what he did is right! De Pakhuys is a slum. Just four years ago it was pristine and then the first yellowwood got cut down to bolt next to a splitter crack. And now the boulderers have trashed the place.

Bolting and bouldering is almost impossible to control. I have placed my last bolt and regret many I have put in because of the precedents that have set.

Bolting may allow for the pinnacle of technical climbing (and by the way for only a very few gifted and dedicated climbers) but it unfortunately also represents a broad base of depravity that is getting worse. It is up to you guys who are at the cutting edge of your sport to control it but I can't see you succeeding.


Last edited by SNORT on Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 9:43 pm 
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Real Name: Scott Miller
Wow this is too funny! I happened to be bolting at Sandriff crag that day with permission from David (via Tony Lourens as thats the way David wants it).

The GP car was a rental from some very nice swiss climbers who were climbing, not bolting.

So lets stop saying Illegal bolting and more importantly maybe ask around first before saying illegal bolting.

The routes are a good addition to the crag and enjoyable. Ill update the wiki soon but there is a 15,16 two 18's a 21 and a 22.

Oh and Snort I trad climb, I'm over the age of 30 and a member of the MCSA.

Cheers
Scott Miller


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:22 am 
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Hey Scott,

Glad you have cleared this up. if it is all legal and the owner is happy then bolt away :)

I suspect there may have been some miscommunication between David and Tony perhaps, the climber who told David about the bolting and saw David get hot under the collar is a well respected local and that is what I was working on.

B


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:00 am 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Scott I know you trad climb and the fact that you are bolting responsibly and are over 30 and a member of the MCSA proves my point. Read my post carefully: you fit the profile of the older responsible trad climber perfectly: "I have said it before many times that older guys who cut their teeth on trad climbing including you, and Roger and Andy Davies etc etc, are at the forefront of developing sport climbing responsibly. Not only that, but managing it and doing the maintenance required. "

Andre P: I left out the word "more". I could not agree more with your balanced sentiments.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:28 am 
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Excellent, so thats cleared up, sounds like Sandrif is worth a visit. So then, who exactly is doing illegal/crap bolting? Anyone at all or are we blowing this out of proportion? Guess there was Matts anchor on TM, anything else out there. Snort, perhaps you know of any other violations, please list them. Name and shame is a good start, or maybe we are getting bent out of shape for nothing. Though I do agree that the mass of foreign boulderers has partially trashed Rocklands, but thats not sport climbing, another debate. The VF on the Sentinel is also not sport climbing, that was put up by trad climbers and anyway I think its a good thing, if only they had gained permission. I'll take my 8 yr old son up there someday.

So, lets create the list of sport bolting offences/offenders:-


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:04 am 
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Good job Scott. Knowing what it takes to properly bolt a line, the effort and investment in time and material is much appreciated. Look forward to doing yet more great Miller routes.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 11:10 am 
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Seems "access to these amazing crags" is under greater threat from the rumor mill than anything else. If this 'respected local' took the time to walk up the 5 minute hill on one of the many days Scott was up there he would have easily put to rest any fears of illegal bolting, and might have enjoyed some really nice new climbing at the crag. Certainly running to the owner or posting on a public forum should require some substantiation of one's suspicions. Scott's done a great job over the years of developing milder grades for all to enjoy at his own cost, and the risk of this idiotic rumor mongering is to both the crag owners ongoing consent and the route developers motivation. We heard the rumors coming out of the campsite at Sanddrif but figured anyone that cared enough would just saunter up the 5 minute hill and assess the real situation. the nice Swiss couple did and they got some fun second ascents and cold beers over a braai for their efforts. I guess i'm not surprised to see it presented like this (i.e. calling the alleged offenders "bastards" etc.) as its easier and maybe more fun, but there are times when these forums are worthwhile to solve real bolting or ethical issues, and crying wolf will only just serve to turn away the attention of those that should probably be in on the discourse.
Cheers.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 12:21 pm 
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Good communication.... oh so important :alien:


Image


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:18 pm 
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Location: East London
Real Name: Matthew Bekker
With regards to the illegal bolting are you guys talking about the route next too venus at sanddrif where the bolts look like homemade pieces of scrap metal? jumped on the route last week as it had pretty good chains on it was not too bad just looked really dodge interms of the bolts.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:28 pm 
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Real Name: Christo Snyman
I have to side with Adnan on this one. Brussell & the "well Known Climber" and Snort painting everyone under the same brush (if you trad you have ethics if you don't you erm don't) this is a serious fail for all you guys.

Surely the correct thing to do is take the short walk up and find out what is going on before starting rumours or telling the owner there is someone bolting illegally up there, off course he will get pissed. Scott is also a well known climber and every single person who has ever climbed in the cedarberg have to thank him for all the work he has done there over the years!

It would have taken 5 minutes to get to the bottom of this but instead it now turn into a public excercise of name calling, accusing a completely innocent swiss couple getting blamed (clearly you know it was their car, because their was enough investigation to know that there was a foreign couple there with a car) and getting the owner work-up as well!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:51 pm 
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I made no comment on the Sandrif bolting, I know better than to make accusations without first investigating a little. The intention of my post is to show that Snort and others blow things completely out of proportion: I am waiting for Snorts list of bolting offendors, I'd be suprised if there are more than 2. Scott deserves an apology. Andrew


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 6:13 pm 
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Ok..so I'm not a sport climber, nor a trad climber, and yes i'm under 30, and yes i'm a boulderer. I would like to highlight a few points that are rather disheartening. These are primarily directed at Mr. (or sir) Charles Edelstein aka SNORT. Climbing has grown over the years. It is no longer an elitist sport enjoyed by the few so-called brave and humble traditional climbers who are stuck in the past and form the basis and majority of the MCSA. Have you ever stopped and thought as to why the younger generation doesn't join your elite group? I have investigated joining MCSA and to be contrite and honest, its not worth the effort. The benefits gained from joining this club are few, especially as a boulderer. The club has not moved with the times and does not support this 'new' community (by and far the most popular form of climbing amongst the younger generation globally). The view that bouldering and sport climbing is damaging to the environment is kinda silly. Take this for example. If neither of those two types of climbing existed and the amount of traditional climbers were the same as all three disciplines combined, there would be a very similar amount of impact, just in different areas. The fact that the community of traditional climbers has not grown is testament to the way or manner in which the 'older' generation is largely unwilling to mentor younger climbers. Now, that is a shame!!! I know of many climbers who would particularly enjoy learning the 'ropes' in the traditional climbing scene but its just so damn difficult to find people who are willing to guide them and teach them the technical complexities of trad climbing. South African climbing cannot move forward as a sport (as it has in Europe and America) unless the 'wounds' created by the 'elite' are not healed. This cannot and will not be accomplished, especially when people like you (SNORT!!!!) do more talking and accusing than mentoring and helping. Feel free to change this into another topic....I will not bother you anymore. My feelings have been expressed...actions speak louder than words.
Nicolas Telford


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:23 pm 
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Location: cape town
@ Nic T - Funny you should say that- I've been mentored\ climbed with\ put up with by Tony Dick, Hilton Davies, Snort and Jeremy Samson to name a few . I think if you show the right attitude and enthusiasm most of the guys will be more than willing to show one the ropes.

In fact most of the people I've met through climbing are really cool! My favorite dude who taught me to hug is into bouldering! I have a huge amount of respect and time for Scott and what he has done for climbing is fantastic.

I've done sport, bouldering and trad and enjoy them all. Maybe not equally but each to their own.
The fact is rocklands is being trashed and every now and then I guess there are bad bolting practices. The MCSA does need to think of something to get the younger generation of all the disciplines to join up so that sensitive areas might be better managed and the bolting managed correctly.

We are all climbers after all and should stand together.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 10:32 pm 
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Location: cape town
Oh my girlfriend just pointed out it sounds like I am saying Scott taught me to hug :lol: - sorry. JuzH taught me how to hug.. :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:34 pm 
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Real Name: Jacques Breitenbach
'Move with the times' Quote from NickT.

What times are those: the times when Everest has become an abdomination, surfing has become a commercial monster, kids are more interested in playing their new Xbox games in 3D than actually getting out there and seeing something real with there own eyes. The sea is already poisoned, the ice is melting, the cheeta's are extinct, the rhino's are stuffed, the earth is dying and no one gives a shit. Those times Nick?????

Maybe whats needed is for some of the youth to actually embrace the 'old fashioned ways' of the MCSA and give the 'oldies' like Snort some credit. Sometimes being old means that you have the experiance to actually know what the hell you are talking about. Snort your effort is valient but doomed, the 'new community' (NickT, Matt Bushes etc) of the world and their obsession with instant gratification will multiply and multiply, much like Mr Smith from the Matrix, a virus that slowly/fastly sucks the life out in everything in their way.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:47 pm 
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Real Name: Scott Miller
Hey All here is the RD.

Neels you can have a hug from me if you want but hawkins is much better at it.

With these additions and a few new lines on the main wall Sandriff is definitely worth a visit.
Cheers
Scott


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:07 pm 
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Real Name: Christo Snyman
Jacques I do not know either yourself or Nick but it seems like you are blaming Nick for everything from Global warming to to Rhino Poaching, which just reinforces his point.

I think the points he made are good. I know Snort heart is in the right place, but it doesn't mean I need to agree with his methods, I'm sure Snort could respect that being the outspoken person he is.

Is this not a good example of why it is hard to get a younger generation of climber to gel with the older generation. Nick comes out and sticks his neck out under his real name (mine is Christo Snyman by the way) and make a couple of good points, that it is hard to feel part of a community if you are always blamed for everything that goes wrong because 1) you are young, 2) you enjoy sports climbing, 3) you boulder. For all you know Nick might be an extremely hardworking environmentalist and feel just as strongly about these issues as you do, but you group him with Matt Bush's offences!? (Nick I hope this is the case and my comments do not come back to haunt me :-))

What he said and what I say is judge people individually based their character and actions not what your impression of a group is i.e. age, surfer, or what not. You can't have it both ways you can lump a whole bunch of people in the same group and then get angry if they turn around and call you all a bunch of stuck up old farts.

I also feel everest is a mess, I also get pissed when some asshole bolts on someone else's land (or our public space) without having permission. It doesn't mean it is Nick fault or all climbers under 30 years or boulderers etc. Taking this approach you will just further widen the gap between the groups and you will find people who go out and bolt whatever simply to say a f*ck you to the older generation.

We all long for the days when fewer people went into the mountains, but those days are gone and crying about it will not make things better. If we want to protect these areas we need to work together not spend our time fighting with other potentially like minded people.

People who know Snort also knows he has done much mentoring (and have and do much for climbing), but put yourself in the shoes of a young climber coming to these forums and reading your and Snort post not knowing you. Will you feel comfortable as a young climber to approach that person and ask for advice or will you be rightly nervous that he will 1) give you a lecture, 2) bite your head off 3) simply dismiss you because you are not part of the same group.


Last edited by Chris on Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:10 pm 
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Location: western cape
Real Name: Brandon
Nick, your argument is silly. I'm under the age of 30. 17 in fact and when I started climbing I was immediately introduced by an older friend to the MCSA. and I can definitely tell you that it has helped me grow my climbing habits. I have yet to encounter someone who is completely unmotivated to show me the ropes or at east refer me to someone that can. The idea that the MCSA is a bunch of 'traditional oldies' is not true. I've met a fair amount of young climbers that are part of the MCSA.

Brandon


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:23 pm 
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jgb wrote:
'Move with the times' Quote from NickT.

What times are those: the times when Everest has become an abdomination, surfing has become a commercial monster, kids are more interested in playing their new Xbox games in 3D than actually getting out there and seeing something real with there own eyes. The sea is already poisoned, the ice is melting, the cheeta's are extinct, the rhino's are stuffed, the earth is dying and no one gives a shit. Those times Nick?????

Maybe whats needed is for some of the youth to actually embrace the 'old fashioned ways' of the MCSA and give the 'oldies' like Snort some credit. Sometimes being old means that you have the experiance to actually know what the hell you are talking about. Snort your effort is valient but doomed, the 'new community' (NickT, Matt Bushes etc) of the world and their obsession with instant gratification will multiply and multiply, much like Mr Smith from the Matrix, a virus that slowly/fastly sucks the life out in everything in their way.


Overreact much... sheesh.


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