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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:14 am 
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Real Name: Matthew Munting
Why is the abseil at Yellowwood Amphitheater bolted at 70 m intervals? What kind of bolting ethic is that?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:22 am 
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Snort had 'special' ropes and so...

What was your experience on the abseil?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:35 am 
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Have not been there or done it yet because I fall into the standard category, as does everyone except Snort, of 50 or 60m ropes... I recon it's selfish, rude and unethical to bolt at any desired length. All that's gonna happen is there will one day be more bolts placed at 50m intervals (if it's possible of course). What a f#$up...


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:13 pm 
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Real Name: Warren Gans
Snort and Robert bolted the line, and regularly read this forum. Hopefully they can justify their actions, and offer us a reasonable solution.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:27 pm 
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Real Name: Wesley
Image

Sit back and enjoy. ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Real Name: Ferdinand Pieterse
I see your Popcorn Wes and raise you a Image

:lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:55 pm 
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LOVE the popcorn & worms guys!!!! :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:43 pm 
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I've got a great idea!

How about we institute a Scorn Committee!

...although I'd settle for a public flogging.

:lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:16 pm 
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I suspect it was never supposed to be a rap route at all, but bolted stances on a bold, hard line up the wall. Which would have had stances added in between each anchor to make +-35m pitches, but which wouldn't go.

Whoops, did I say that out loud?? I don't even know if it true, so take the above with a pinch of salt.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:06 pm 
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Matthew what is your source of information buddy? It is way wrong. Not that I want to come to the defence of Snorty Boy and Robert. What they did was bullshit.
"Have not been there or done it yet because I fall into the standard category..." is no excuse for not climbing at Yellowwood. The standard descent down the gully is quick, easy and without the dangers of the rap route in the event that you cock it up.
Alternatively I've recently down-climbed (mostly scrambling with a little proper climbing) the B Route (picture in 1962 Journal between pages 60 and 61). It's great. Flew down it on my own in about 20 minutes.

Pierre - no. They are 60m raps and not on a line. Mostly totally blank rock that overhangs about 10 degrees.

Guys sorry, I wasn't aware of the PMs.
Henk - RD of Yellowwood Crack in MCSA Journal of 1962.
Justfly - I don't really want to talk about how I do rope-solo missions. It's fooking dangerous with one advantage, as Guy likes to point out. 'At least my corpse will be hanging against the wall.'


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:38 pm 
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The abseil can be done safely with 2 x 60m ropes. It used to consist of four long raps; two to the halfway ledge, and two to the ground. Only the first and last pitches are (were) longer than 60m. Snort or Robert have since added bolts just below a little overlap on the first rap that effectively breaks it in half. The final rap station is about 70m above the floor. It ends at a single anchor about 10m from the ground, normally I just scramble down from there. Tie knots at the end of your ropes, you don't want to stuff this one up.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
The raps are not 70m.

The ropes I used when setting up the rap are meant to be 60m but in fact appear to be about 64 or 65 metres. I was not aware of that at the time.

On the first rap, an in- between point has been made at about 25m but is in a hanging position so it is nice to avoid it if your ropes are long enough.

The second rap is only 55m.

The third rap is 58m

And the last one is 60m and there is a peg to the right if your ropes are shorter.

The rap route from the top to the half way ledge was originally entirely done on wired nuts with the view to inspecting the possibility of a new route. As things stand You can safely rappel to the half way ledge with standard 60m ropes (and possibly even 50m ropes) and then walk to the left about 50m to New Born where there are rappel points every 25m or so! That is what we did first time round.

Because there are alternatives to descending, I named this as a route, Down Time. The first time you do it you will find it very exciting, exhilarating and scary and fun!. And really worth doing. If at any point in the descent you are concerned with the ropes reaching you can make a trad point like I did first time round. It costs a lot less, is more elegant in my view and needs much less effort than putting in bolted stations which are permanent but eventually deteriorate leaving scars when they are replaced. Putting up a rap route with 5 or 6 bolted stations at YW is time consuming, hard work and expensive. To suggest that it is selfish smacks of entitlement. If you don't like it then either don't use it or put in additional rappel stations. (which are actually not at all needed).

You have to be experienced and competent to climb on the main amphitheatre of YW. And if you are competent then rapping off it with or without bolted stations should be no problem. I have personally rappelled off YW down Armageddon Time, most of Prime Time, Blood is Sweeter than Honey and 2/3 of the way up Fantastic Time and 3/4 of the way up Show Time. It is all part of the game and you can get your butt handed to you on any of the routes there at any time and forced to retreat.

Overall I must had abseiled off YW at different points at least 15 times leaving gear behind but then retrieving it at a later stage.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:12 pm 
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Real Name: Jacques Breitenbach
Hey I'm sure someone will disagree, but to me yellowwood represents one of the pinicles of trad climbing in the cape, if not the country! I have been there to see it for myself (didn't climb just looked) and can only envy those whose fear receptors don't work well as mine. I disagree with alot snort has to say on the forum (have never met him), but can say that he desearves alot more respect than that "retrorider", and that from someone who hasn't even climed there, shame on you!!!!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:45 pm 
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Snort, sorry boet, but your abseil route is kak. Sure its wild and exposed, doesn't mean its good. We sukkeled big-time with 60m ropes. It was quite an effort not to cock it up - if you don't pay attention you could end up on a stance in the middle of nowhere with the ends of you ropes 5m up and 5m out. I don't think I'll use it again. Personally I think it detracts from the wall.
But, like Hilton says, there are a bunch of other ways off the hill, so if you don't like the rap route then use one of the others.
Rap routes are a guilty little ethical blind spot for us andventuring types. We all use them but they go against pretty much all the hard-line ethics. They are, ultimately, just a convenience - very anti-adventure. Yet more nuance-fuel for the good ol' ethics fire. If I had half the strength of my convictions I'd chop the rap routes at Blouberg - except they're just so damn convenient! *Sigh*


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:41 pm 
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Real Name: Richard Halsey
I have little interest in these mud slinging matches that seem to happen on this forum, but I am interested in people's safety.

So, regarding the abseil in question as it stands:
The top of the wall is proper steep. Getting back into the anchors on the way down does require a bit of focus. If you end up spinning around, count how many times so you can properly un-twist the ropes so they will pull. If you let go of the wrong rope when pulling, it may be impossible to retrieve as it will be hanging in space. Make absolutely sure you know which rope to pull. This may sound bleedingly obvious, but this is not a place for school boy errors. You can't climb out the upper section of the rap line. Help is a very long way away.

If you top out late, and you have not done these abseils before, I suggest you go for a walk to the standard descent. If you are not comfortable with complex abseils this is not a place to learn.

Yellowwood is hard work no matter how you slice it, but it is worth it. I have not been as many times as I should have thus far, and there is no excuse.

Enjoy our special places and be safe.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:42 am 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Ag Hector old boettie, maybe for you I shall go and un-kak it.. It is only the last rap that is a bit long. I shall go and put in a nice trad point specially for you using roped nuts so they don't rust. (not drilling up there again.)

I have said it before and I say it again. Yellowwood is not for sissies. Every route there that I have done on the main amphitheatre has at least one serious R rated pitch which is much more dangerous than the rap.

I also make the point that most if not all rap lines arise from having to retreat off a route and it is initially off of sketchy trad pieces. The first time I went down that rap route was with the Brit Ged Desforges to the halfway ledge with the view to finding a new line there.

The first point was a Rock 1, the second was a Rock 6 and the third point was a Black Diamond 7. This was on standard 50m ropes. From the half way ledge we went down New Born's stations that you can rap with single ropes as there are stations at 30m or less intervals.

From the top rap Fantastic Time was spotted which is 20m to the right. One can easily conveniently escape off Fantastic Time after the 23 pitch (the second pitch after the halfway ledge) by walking left (one move that is exposed and needs pro) to the rap station. This is very nice when you have wilted in 35 degree sun. Done that twice when no-one in the party wanted to lead on.

I am still in the market of pushing a route through where the rap station goes but it will have to use rails going here and there to avoid the blank sections. Like New Born it would need bolts to push straight through but that ain't gonna happen. As things stand "Up Time" already has 4 pitches starting at the bottom, it just needs to be finished by someone stronger and better and bolder than me. I'll Invite Alex Honnold.

Small correction BTW, the in-between point on the first rap from the top was actually added in by Farrell Davids.

The short version of all this is that anyone who regularly climbs at YW and is well acquainted with the rap loves having it there. It is easy to find from the top compared to Blouberg raps. And so the same holds true for Blouberg, where there are 3 rap routes. They are all impossible to find from the top if you are not well acquainted with them. So that is majorly kak! The middle rap route at Blouberg that goes down the chimneys and to the grass ledge does not have a top point and one has to leave a sling (unless that's changed). And then finding the point from the grass ledge can be very challenging. So it goes.... Maybe rap routes are just kak anyway you cut it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:21 am 
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Yoh, just re-read what I wrote. Sounds harsh. Sorry Sniffles and Robert.
I actually love the rap route. The problem I have with it is what it does for people like the German and Austrian visitors that we had, who used the bolted rap route as a justification for bolting the heck out of Yellowwood. Hopefully we don't get more of that.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:29 am 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Indeed Hilton, you have partaken of the rap route more than once and even borrowed my ropes on one occasion. Nice and convenient. The bolted rap routes on TM barely lasted 10 years and have been redone! No justification for bolting The Dream.

BTW Willem and I climbed Tatwoc a week ago and Willem tested the fixed nut on the top pitch by jumping on it before committing to the move. Seems OK. Still better than a bolt methinks. And a lot better than nothing. It is all fun and games....


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:27 pm 
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Location: cape town
I can't comment because I have also used the rap route and borrowed snorts ropes and gear. But if I was an outsider I might think there is something very wrong with this story. These guys say no bolting at yellow wood yet a rap route is bolted that only really suits one guys ropes. And it get stated that you shouldn't complain because don't use it if you don't like it. Well maybe someone might just think who the fuxk do you think you are? I'll go and bolt my brilliant multi pitch sport line and if you don't like it don't climb it. I hope that never happens and please don't start that debate over again. I think a sorry it was bolted kak by accident would've just sounded better. Just a thought


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:57 pm 
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Location: Stellenbosch
Real Name: Brenda Marx
Is anyone now also going to start moaning about sport routes higher than 25m - discriminating against people who don't have 50m ropes, or routes more than 30m for those who don't have 60+m ropes?
Climbing (esp trad, and even more so WILD trad) is often not for people who want rules and regulations... we do it at our own risk, own expense, and without tour guides. If you cock up, deal with it, it's nobody's fault but your own. If it's too scary or big for you, stay away, and don't moan about it. Nobody needs to go and use Snort's bolts.... it's there for anyone's convenience, should you choose to use them - courtesy of him....

We mustn't forget that this attitude should also apply to all sport routes where we so happily and trustingly clip the bolts, as if we have a right to it.

People in general should stop complaining and rather take charge of something... e.g. try to improve on what probably was well meant and put some bolts in there yourself. Perhaps then you'll realise the true effort that goes into it.


Last edited by tygereye on Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:59 am 
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Location: cape town
I wasn't actually moaning I have used the rap route every time I've been
to yellow wood bar once, I loved it! I was trying to see things from a
different point of view. 
To say no bolting and then have a rap route that only suits one persons
ropes strikes me as a touch hypocritical. How many trad climbers do you
know with 65 meter ropes? I only know one and he's my best friend!
Maybe ex after this post! He did say it was an accident though.

I'm not sure if yellow wood is all that big and scary, sure I get scared
but I scare easily. Can't say I've ever seen snort looking too afraid up
there. Perhaps I can scare Alex Honold  when I take him up there later
this year :-)


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:38 pm 
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Real Name: Charles Edelstein
Well said Brenda. Say no more. FIFIFO = Fit in fix it or .....





Fly off!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:51 pm 
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Yes snort not only are you a great climber but you have a great attitude too.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:16 pm 
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Real Name: Matthew Munting
Been very entertaining indeed this has! I'll forgive you Snort seeing that it was an accident anyway (Blouberg's 55m abseil anchors were also an accident back in the day haha)...

Took the Mrs up there this weekend and climbed Smalblaar Ridge - blew my hair back and I'll definitely be back. It's one of those amazing places just like blouies.

Thanks to those developing it!

:afro:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:57 pm 
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Brenda Marx wrote:
People in general should stop complaining and rather take charge of something... e.g. try to improve on what probably was well meant and put some bolts in there yourself.....If it's too scary or big for you, stay away, and don't moan about it.
The issue is that the person who put those bolts in, is the same person who has promised to chop any that are placed afterwards.

It's a bit like bolting a 40m route on the God No wall, and then telling anyone who wants to add a halfway lower off that you'll chop their bolts. See?
Brenda Marx wrote:
Climbing (esp trad, and even more so WILD trad) is often not for people who want rules and regulations.
so then those people shouldn't go around making rules for the rest of us hey?
Brenda Marx wrote:
Perhaps then you'll realise the true effort that goes into it
Oh I do, every time I lug the drill up a hill I do. And I dedicate every bolt I place to old Snort :thumleft:


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