It is currently Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:27 pm

All times are UTC + 2 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ] 

What can the low incident rate in climbing be best ascribed to?
Poll ended at Tue Jun 26, 2012 6:19 pm
Luck 42%  42%  [ 5 ]
Skill 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Safety Precautions 58%  58%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 12
Author Message
 Post subject: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:45 pm
Posts: 222
Real Name: Franz Fuls
Please vote and comment


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:44 am
Posts: 592
How about qualifying "low incident rate in climbing" first.

What are we comparing? Golf and climbing?
What is seen as "low" and how many injuries and deaths are considerd as "high"?
What is seen as "incident"? Hurt tendon form bouldering or Death form soloing?

Are we working on hear-say to establish amount of incidents, are we discussing our own incidents, or are we referring to some recognized database?

Otherwise I'll be voting for "rainy weather and TV" :mrgreen:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:47 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
Posts: 2956
Location: Montagu
Real Name: Justin Lawson
I am of the opinion its a numbers thing. There aren't that many climbers in the country... this is changing.

_________________
Climb ZA - Administrator


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:54 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:13 am
Posts: 147
Location: Benoni
Real Name: David Wade
Assuming low incident rate is referring to fatal injuries, the main reason fatal injuries are low is fear.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:08 pm
Posts: 126
Location: Durban
Real Name: Bruce Tomalin
Assuming I hear of most rock climbing (not hiking, tourist off path, etc.) it appears the fatality rate is about 1 per year?
As said by David, fear rules because risk is perceived to be very high (in fact, it is probably quite low for the "average" rock climber using appropriate gear correctly).
Therefore, the logical answer is "safety precautions" (they don't take much skill!) - we do them because we are scared...

_________________
LCD SCUM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
Posts: 2956
Location: Montagu
Real Name: Justin Lawson
Have a look at S.A. Mountain Accidents Database web site (Western Cape only)

Walking is the most dangerous activity... rock climbing comes in at number 4

_________________
Climb ZA - Administrator


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:45 pm
Posts: 222
Real Name: Franz Fuls
An unsafe act does not necessarily lead to an incident. Incidents depend on a window of opportunity: multiple unsafe acts / conditions have to align at a specific moment in time for an incident to realise. That's where we have to manage our risks, to prevent that window from opening.
To put this into perspective: its cool to solo, but when doing so you must realise that you have already undone the window's latch and the margin of error has become virtually non-existent.

Justin, yeah its a numbers thing and with all the beginners entering the game I'm just wondering how many of them has a good example to learn from. Its all good when an experienced climber takes shortcuts along with a calculated risk but a beginner seeing it may just see the shortcut as standard.
Now South Africans have a reputation for taking shortcuts on almost anything.
I would rather have a beginner taking shortcuts on the double redundant system he is taught, than taking shortcuts on the shortcut demonstrated by an experienced climber which the beginnner perceives to be standard.

Personally I think we are just lucky.

I am amazed that cyclists never debate helmets. Neither do whitewater kayakers. Do people skydive without a helmet? What makes rock (sport) climbing so safe that the majority of climbers still feel that helmets are uncool?
I am not saying we should suddenly start enforcing helmets on all climbers. I just think we could save lives by being slightly more aware of safety in the climbing community.
In my opinion this is even more important when experienced climbers are active where beginners are around. Even more so when those beginners are children.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:08 pm
Posts: 126
Location: Durban
Real Name: Bruce Tomalin
people I climb with always wear helmets, else they get a klap on that unhelmeted head...

meant to say rock climbing DEATHS above...

If events include serious injury, then my impression is they are also low.
(I will take some time to check out the stats!)...
My impression is that canoeing is about the same (1 death per year)...
My impression also is that mountain biking is perceived to be safe but, in fact, has a high rate of fairly serious injury (broken arms, collar bones, etc) but not deaths.

You can get all statistical and complex about this, but impressions are important in influencing how people behave. Scared people are careful people.

_________________
LCD SCUM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:45 pm
Posts: 222
Real Name: Franz Fuls
Hey Bruce, I will climb with you anytime!
Its the climbers (and people in general) with no perception of fear that scares me the most.

Yeah, we could get all technical, but that would take tremendous effort and will probably not add that much value. However, if we do not take our safety serious as a community, others could pressure us to do so.
Much better if we can, as a community, just consistently demonstrate safe behaviour from the start and avoid all the red tape that comes with a reactive approach.

peace


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:11 pm
Posts: 177
Real Name: Kevin Dingle
Personaly i feel that the system we use has been perfected over time and the gear quality has increased drastically.

All the accidents i hear of can be attributed to pilot error.

But the size of the comunity also scews this "low insident rate"

As the comunity increases training will become a major concern.

I like the freedom of the climbing comunity, but with this freedom comes certain dangers.

If I may make a comparison, the Scuba Diving industry is heavily regulated, but the insidence of recreational diving accidents is very low.

I think a balance must be found between having climbing become a regulated sport and having the total freedom of doing any thing you want.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:08 pm
Posts: 126
Location: Durban
Real Name: Bruce Tomalin
Scuba diving is a very good analogy:
when I started "training" SCUBA at university in the 70's the training essentially consisted of a series of hurdles - we put the fear of god into them and if you fell at any one you were out. Weeded out the poor swimmers and careless.
Now you have a "hotel pool" course, get driven to a dive site, get a whole bunch of expensive, complex gear which you don't understand dumped on your back and your hand is held continuously...
If anything goes wrong a million regulations will ensure that some-one did not check a tick box somewhere and they get nailed. The regulations do nothing for personal responsibility.
Makes diving a pain in the ass and very expensive.
Good for rich people, not good for me.

God forbid climbing goes that route...

_________________
LCD SCUM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:45 pm
Posts: 222
Real Name: Franz Fuls
I agree.
Regulations is a real pain in the ass. But it is unfortunately what happens when an industry cannot maintain safety by themselves.
i.m.o. if we want to avoid climbing becoming regulated we have deomstrate that we take safety seriously, or else it will eventually be forced onto us.

From my experience in any activity the group most probable to get injured are the highly experieinced people, and for a simple reason: complacency.
2nd highest are the absolute beginners who are at the mercy of the experienced guys.
Those falling somewhere inbetween rarely experience bad injuries because they know how to keep themselves safe, and still have a healthy respect for the risks in their activity.

Thus for experienced guys becoming complacent, and beginners its to a great extent luck that keeps them safe.
For the middle group preventative measures keep them safe.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:13 am
Posts: 147
Location: Benoni
Real Name: David Wade
The last thing I want is for climbing to become highly regulated. Then, as was pointed out it becomes a rich mans sport and a pain in the ass


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:11 pm
Posts: 177
Real Name: Kevin Dingle
Agree with franz and bruce

Franz wrote:
if we want to avoid climbing becoming regulated we have deomstrate that we take safety seriously, or else it will eventually be forced onto us.


Well said,This is my biggest fear in Climbing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Grant Marinus
Regulation is a double edged sword which serves little meaningful purpose in proper climbing. To the extent that regulations create the perception that because you (or the instructor/guide) have “ticked box” A, B and C that you therefore capable of doing something you would otherwise never have ventured to do on your own they are worthless. All they do is to create a misplaced belief that you can climb X or hike Y because the book said you can if you did “A” course or have “B” gear or its safe because its bolted or you have a guide. The end result is people accessing areas that they really ought not to be in under the misconception that they can because they “ticked the boxes” and the regulations provide some form of guarantee.

In this way people who should be afraid of the inherent dangers in true mountaineering climb routes, fall off, or get lost and fall off, and die because their perceptions of risk are misplaced. And what is the inevitable result. The community gets terribly upset and decides to regulate the matter (extreme activity) even further (read make it “safer”) by putting up route markers, or via ferrate’s or staples or bolts or prescribing a guided ascent. Ridiculous!

In this way the misconception of safety through regulation is perpetuated even further, more people participate that should not and inevitably more will perish.

Reinhold Messner wrote an article entitled “A Passion for Limits” which includes amongst others the following statements:

Outside in the wild areas mountaineering must be dangerous so that we can learn. Danger is a filter which stops people from going where, perhaps, they should not go.

Danger, exposure, cold and difficulty are part of our mountain experience. These are what we fear and enjoy and from them we learn. Don’t sell them out. Its so easy to sell out by building a cable car in the mountains but by doing so we steal isolation and exposure from the mountains.

So, if the dearth of fatal accidents in climbing is due to a healthy fear and respect of the mountains and acknowledgement of ones own ability so be it, that’s the true order of things … not the misconceived notion that we can all be heroes, winners and get a prize or whatever other sanitized belief our commodity driven society is so desperate to believe in.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:45 pm
Posts: 222
Real Name: Franz Fuls
@GBM: are you not maybe exaggerating just a little bit??

a few thoughts (interpret it as you wish):
i. the regulations are already there. they are just not applied / enforced in our sport.
ii. As long as people dont start killing themselves too often, and as long as the families of the deceased dont invoke the OHSAct, we will not become regulated.
iii. We can further ensure it does not happen, by promoting safety and setting the example. Thus we demostrate our ability to act in a safe manner.
iv. People are already (without formal training or proper apprenticeship) learning climbing basics and ridding themselves of the fear of heights in climbing gyms, then think they know it all and charge into the mountains. The graffiti and litter are testaments to that. These people dont know how to clean, because they were never exposed to it. They dont worry about a helmet, because they climbed in the gym without one. They dont know any better.
v. increasing numbers of people at the crags increases the probability of accidents occuring.
vi. The experienced among us should lead by example, and in a positive way guide the inexperienced and ignorants towards safety awareness.
vii. If we fail, accidents will happen more and more frequently.
viii. Next step the government starts applying regualtions.

The regulations are to protect the landlord, the guide and the instructor against ignorant people, and
to protect the inexperienced climber against ignorant guides, instructors and landowners.

Nobody want to see regulations in our sport. Me included. I work with regulations almost on a daily basis and really dont want to be confronted with them over weekends too.

So, lets all be safe without regulations, then there will be no need for it to be applied to us. Let's not leave it in the hands of luck.
PS: anyone makes mistakes. If anyone see me at the crag and feel I am unsafe. Please speak to me about it. That's how we learn. As a matter of fact, dont only apply it to me, but to anyone you come across. Lets be nice about it though, no need to piss each other off in the process.

peace


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:52 am
Posts: 73
Location: Cape Town
danglingdingle wrote:
Personaly i feel that the system we use has been perfected over time and the gear quality has increased drastically.


Attachments:
File comment: How far we have come indeed!
Gear.jpg
Gear.jpg [ 30.05 KiB | Viewed 1442 times ]

_________________
Super Mario
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 31, 2007 8:03 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Grant Marinus
If any of those items are for sale i would like to tender for the pitons, the hammer and the axe ... now thats what real mountaineering was all about.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:11 pm
Posts: 177
Real Name: Kevin Dingle
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Love the gear, I'll go for the hobnail boots


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:23 pm
Posts: 116
Location: Gauteng
Guys face it we need more regulation. An example: I think Brisbane might have the safest climbing environment (but it might just be that the land owners and lawyers feel safe, I'm not so sure if this kind of regulation actually impacts much on the real safety of climbers).

Attachment:
536611_10150896182924254_610519253_11580339_1229189283_n.jpg
536611_10150896182924254_610519253_11580339_1229189283_n.jpg [ 192.34 KiB | Viewed 1330 times ]


Attachment:
560663_10150896183884254_610519253_11580344_240169589_n.jpg
560663_10150896183884254_610519253_11580344_240169589_n.jpg [ 164.19 KiB | Viewed 1330 times ]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:40 am
Posts: 752
Location: Stellenbosch
Real Name: Nic Le Maitre
Regulation is only as effective as its enforcement. Are we going to get Climbing Police at all the crags? Or are they going to make us all do courses and refreshers? It is not going to happen.

_________________
Happy climbing
Nic


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:48 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
Posts: 706
Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
....WTF are you guys on about?

I know I don't have to read it...its a compulsive habit. Maybe its on-set of my midlife crisis,but this shit is getting more & more boring by the day.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Safety and climbing
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:45 pm
Posts: 222
Real Name: Franz Fuls
lol.
Agreed. The whole regulation thing is repetative and inconclusive.
Safety though, I feel is a cup that will never be full.

Yeah, our gear safety and quality has improved drastically. Yet it remains useless unless you actually pick it up and use it - correctly.

peace.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ] 

All times are UTC + 2 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Exabot [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group