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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:59 am 
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Location: Cape Town
To whom it may concern,

I have recently taken some beginner climbers to the area above, as I heard on the new sport routes there, the place is beautiful and have loads of potential.

The problem is, that the routes are mix sport and trad, no I don't have an issue with that, however there isn't a point of lower grade mixed routes, as beginners are not going to do that, and the ones that can climb higher grade will it bother with the lower grade. So my point is that the lower grade routes up to 21 should be completely bolted, properly. And the high grade ones are an option, I would love them to be fully bolted, but if it isn't an option then so be it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:23 pm 
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Guy wrote:
The problem is, that the routes are mix sport and trad, no I don't have an issue with that, however there isn't a point of lower grade mixed routes
Why not? Climbing as a whole has no point, besides being fun. A lot of effort to go up just to go down again. Arguing a 'point' in climbing is pointless, unless the point is fun.
Guy wrote:
beginners are not going to do that
They might. I learnt to place gear on sport routes, clipping bolts where there was no gear. Not so pointless.
Guy wrote:
and the ones that can climb higher grade will not bother with the lower grade.
Forecast the future much? Wanna come to Greyville with me on the weekend, we make some $$$?
Guy wrote:
So my point is that the lower grade routes up to 21 should be completely bolted, properly. And the high grade ones are an option, I would love them to be fully bolted, but if it isn't an option then so be it.
If it's that important, why don't you do it? Or are you offering here and just asking permission?

Seems you're bummed you didn't take rack with. Not the routes' fault :?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Real Name: Warren Gans
I'm with Pierre on this one, but to say this: there are Nth number of potential lines in Cederberg. if people want mixed routes let them have them, there is plenty more. Just because one can climb hard doesn't mean one always must.

A better question would be why place a bolt on a mixed route, rather than allowing for RB's and run-outs? but again i answer my own question with the same reply above: there is lots of rock...

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Real Name: Bradley Gie
I personally LOVE mixed area's. Especially area that span the grades!
I enjoy all aspects of climbing and get something differnet from each 'disipline.'

IMHO:
Leave as is! and.... I wouldn't like to see many/ any more bolts in that area!


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:20 pm 
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I think I smell a troll......

Anyhow:

Some of the most classic mixed routes are of the lower grade.
Isn't Splinter in the minds eye an 18?

If you have to take beginners out, climbing may not be the most effective way.
But I can understand a remote area like the Cederberg for it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:46 am 
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Real Name: Brenda Marx
Why do you have to climb hard to climb trad/mixed?
Should you not let first-time climbers rather toprope?
If they really don't want to place gear, then preplace some

Hann wrote:
I think I smell a troll......


@Hann: I think you're right :pirat:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:36 am 
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Real Name: Cormac Tooze
What a load of non sense, I recon bolt the lot, who wants to carry a heavy trad rack on a sport climb?

If you wanna trad in Rocklands, go to Hope, Charity and Faith buttress's.

Sounds like it's the recipe for a inexperienced climber to get hurt.

Cormac


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:43 am 
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Xenomorph wrote:
I recon bolt the lot, who wants to carry a heavy trad rack on a sport climb?


Sounds like a great plan.

But since I tradded Church of Fredirico and Gospel Express last weekend, I'll be chopping both then.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:04 am 
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Hann wrote:
Xenomorph wrote:
I recon bolt the lot, who wants to carry a heavy trad rack on a sport climb?


Sounds like a great plan.

But since I tradded Church of Fredirico and Gospel Express last weekend, I'll be chopping both then.


What a waste of energy, Come chop for ARF instead!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:25 am 
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Xenomorph wrote:
What a waste of energy, Come chop for ARF instead!

Where is the 'Like' button now :)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:30 am 
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Justin wrote:
Where is the 'Like' button now :)


As they say: "told you so" :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:40 am 
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Real Name: Warren Gans
I have been thinking about the morals of chopping a sport route after trading the line: it would be immoral to chop the line if you used the bolts previously eg: Hector has done many laps on Lotters, then one day leads it on trad. as he has worked it using the bolts he may not have been able to trad the line without that experience, and therefore can't claim the upper moral hand regarding chopping.

If you want to chop a sport line in favour of trad, you can't have ever used the bolts.

Sorry for the Tangent

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:49 am 
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@ Warren.

Should the original opener of the route not have the only and final say ?

For instance:

- If I open a trad line, I would be livid if it was retrobolted without my consent.
(I may just act on my Gospel Express threat :rambo:)

- If I open a sport route, I can chop it whenever I feel like, and nobody else has that right.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:39 am 
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Real Name: Justin Lawson
Hann wrote:
Should the original opener of the route not have the only and final say ?

- If I open a trad line, I would be livid if it was retrobolted without my consent. (I may just act on my Gospel Express threat :rambo:)

- If I open a sport route, I can chop it whenever I feel like, and nobody else has that right.


Yes, the original opener should have the final say. Snort has two trad lines in Montagu, I mentioned that it would be great if they were bolted. He said 'don't bolt it' and I can respect that.
But Hann, you didn't open Gospel Express.

The last point (above) is a bit more tricky... I would sooner say let the route be and when the bolts are too old (expired) don't re-bolt the route.


The problem with bolts is that they need to be replaced every couple of decades... what will sport routes look like in 100 years time?
We're definitely living in the golden age of sport climbing with plenty of FA's to be done, clean rock and generally good/safe bolts where ever you go.
In this respect, trad is far better.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:51 am 
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Real Name: Ernesto Ismail
Woah! Please don't chop Gospell Express. I think it is a stunning line and is a right of passage for many beginner Western Cape sport climbers. I think it is the only 17 I have ever been proud to actually send (obviously I've enjoyed many otheres but this was special). As for Church of Frederico - I have been looking forward to being strong enough to do it for a while now...I'm certainly not strong enough to trad it. I think Roger Nattrass's lines are king.

Moxed routes: I can see how they could be dangerous if a party doesn't know they are mixed but really, they are well advertised as being mixed. There a few ADK routes at Paarl which are mixed and I must say I loved those of them I could do.

Finally, chopping is kak hard work, just ask Kevin who chopped the majority of the bolts for ARF last weekend. Bring your chopping skills to (B)ARF.

Justin: if you want to be taking the ultra long view on sport routes maybe we should be placing titanium glueins. Crazy expensive per bolt but if its a 100 year investment and will protect our rock from becoming swiss cheese through rebolting maybe its the way?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:03 am 
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Justin wrote:
But Hann, you didn't open Gospel Express.

Jaja... hollow threat, you called my bluff :oops:
(would love to see the forum the week after I hypothetically do chop it....)

But very interesting point:

Not wrote:
maybe we should be placing titanium glueins. Crazy expensive per bolt but if its a 100 year investment and will protect our rock from becoming swiss cheese through rebolting maybe its the way?


Has there been studies?
1) How long will the bolt last?
2) How long will the glue last?
3) Can the glue be removed with some chemical?
4) Will the SAME hole then be able to take the same titanium bolt when the glue needs replacing?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:46 am 
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Real Name: Wesley Williams
Don't care about the trad bolt non debate. My Oz friend has to top rope everything because bolting is not allowed by the owners of the land.

Can you top rope these climbs? Going these next month and wondering if I should bring the rope along.


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