So I recently followed a thread (non-climb.co.za) where some prominent climbers suggested and discussed opportunities to copy climing holds.

I feel that copying the creative designs of others (especially non-multibillion, small guys) is not cool and hurts the industry.
If we all go out and copy holds, then there will be no incentive left for the manufacturers to bring out new spaes, and our local walls will become really dull.
In such a case there will just be no incentive to be in this business.

Do we really have to plagiarise fellow climbers to save a buck??????

[this post was edited post fume, and the emotion removed]

frans my man some stuff you let go because its Africa man

franz u a noob, u taking words out of context. A crimp is a crimp. Either way, your jugs are bad because they rip tendons, the lip isnt good, ur texture sux and ur range is as limited as IQ. thanks for ruining a perfect day for me (not really as it anuses me). Lastly the only reason why u wont mention names is because Arjan is South Africas best climber, lol, nice advertising ur product:)

ebert nel

i say whats on my mind, so does franz apparently

oi Ebert, that hurts.
I agree, some of them are downright nasty tendon snappers. That was when I started off. Remember? I gave a whole bunch of holds to explo in the hope of getting feedback so I can approve. May people told me the holds are cool. very few people complained (it was free after all). This is the first formal complaint I get from explo on the first jug I made, its was GIVEN to explo as a TRIAL. Would have been nice to get such feedback sooner and less public tough.

Methinks I will look for another wall to send my FREE trial holds to in future, where I get opinions sooner, more honest and less public.
By the way, I retired that tendon snapping hold (and a whole bunch of others long ago (figured out myself how bad it was), so it is not commercially available anymore.

But that is all a bit off topic.
This is more about the ethics of copying holds (or anything else for that matter).

My question:
Is it OK to copy our local hold manufacturers' (or the others') designs?
What incentive do hold manufacturers have to invest time and material into designing cool new shapes (referring to all manufacturers, not just me) if others are just going to copy it?
Does the climbing community really encourage copying other peoples designs?

Anyone that copies a mold has a competitive advantage over the creator, simply because their development costs are eliminated: The designer has to spend time and material in bringing out something new and some way or another he has to absorb that cost. Someone that copies does not have that cost to deal with. Anyone that does not agree really needs to go read a couple of books on business accounting and production technology.

I know starting this thread is bad for business. My idea is however very simple: If the public (and sponsored) personalities in this small community has no respect for people that create for the benefit of the community, then why be bothered to give?

I am not in this to make myself rich (there are far better ways out there), but I do think it is fair to be rewarded for my efforts. (Would like to hear of any manufacturer or importer in the climbing industry that feels different). I'd say that about 10% of holds I manufactured to date have been given away for free, and another 10+% sold for the material cost. If the community sees my effort as an opportunity to copy ideas and leech off my creativity (with no reward or credit, but rather with insults) then its time for me to move on ad find something better to spend my time on.

I would dearly love to see the response of the person I implicated in the start of the thread exposing himself with some comment.

PS: I'm going back to edit the emotion out of the first post. Yes Ebert and co, some of my statements showed poor form and for that I will apologise. I will however not apologise for complaining when prominent people in the community start to promote copying other people's designs.

I'm curious, have any of the copied holds been used by the copycat for anything other than personal use? In other words, have they been trying to benefit financially by selling copied holds?
If one has the time, and the means, and unless the holds are a patented design, surely they can copy a couple of hold for their home wall, they probably won't be as good as the originals anyway.

_________________
...Chalk is cheap...

I hear you Mullet.

I think we should differentiate between the legal and the ethical here. I can elaborate on the legal, but I think the users of this site has very diverse perceptions on what 'legal' really means, so lets stick to ethical and cool if you wish.

Scenario 1:
i. it is 'cool' to buy 6 different shapes from a manufacturer, and then copy them to create a personal wall of say 60 holds? (This implies a financial benefit i.t.o. money that did not leave the copycat's pocket) and loss of income for the manufacturer.

Scenario 2: as in the case which prompted to make this post:
ii. Is it 'cool' and ethical for two well known climbers to discuss in a public forum, and plan to copy holds for the expansion of a university's wall? (we're not talking 60 holds here I guess).

This is what actually happened:

Ebert Nel
franz maybe its only me that doesnt get how u approached this?
not commenting on this post again.

Franz raises a good distinction between legal and ethical. Copying the grips probably doesn't break any laws (though I'm not a lawyer). Ethics becomes a matter of opinion - and differs from person to person.

Personally, I think it's TOTALLY UNCOOL to copy gear which others have spend time and money developing. We want to develop a climbing industry in SA - but there's no incentive to start a business when others feel free to copy your work. Grips are one product where there the economics make sense for local production.

(If price is an issue, speak to the manufacturers. Many manufacturers appreciate that students don't have a lot of spare cash, and are open to giving legitimate discounts).

Modifications and improvements not as clear-cut as outright copying. I'd suggest sharing the improvement with the manufacturer as payment-in-kind.

Next time we wonder why we have to import all our equipment, remember how grateful the individuals in this thread are(n't) to local manufacturers.

PS - @Ebert, do you showother Explo sponsors the same respect?

Am I missing something, I don't see where Arjan said anything about copying your holds? He seems to be offering his own designs to Ebert (?)

I'd think that everyone knows what shapes 'work' these days, at least for those work horse holds. You buy holds 'cos you're lazy or can't get texture and strength right on your own. Or for those really big incredible holds that need complex moulding. Can we see some pics of these holds you think Arjan is suggesting be copied?

@paul
if you read well you will get it, if you catch my drift It was hinted and promised.
Anyways, the methods (accurate and incomplete) that thebest/forket aka Ebert applies are somewhat self inflicted and off topic. Think about it dude, if you did not respond, nobody (except your facebook fans) would have known who I was talking about.
Ebert, my offer to sort out the personal stuff over a few beers still stand (see your facebook page - yesterday, and post that one too if you like, and the others). Arjan, I will be in the cape in a few weeks, and would like to extend the offer to you too.

Back to the topic:
As a local hold manufacturer, what is your perspective on the copying of molds?

I don't know, the comment seems really ambiguous, and even if he is suggesting copying holds, he may not be suggesting copying your holds. There are loads of other shapes from other companies, both international and local, floating around South Africa. This is not the way to fight this. If there is a market, and you make a quality product, the rest should follow.

Again, it is not difficult to shape standard training holds, the difficulty comes thereafter, which is what I understood Arjan as saying in that comment. I doubt Arjan cares for fancy holds, he'd just want stuff to get strong on. If you are making great shapes, and these are being copied, I'd understand your feelings, but over-reacting to a random comment on Facebook doesn't do you any favors.

I hear you paul. agree to some but not all. Statement well put in a professional manner. Like.
I agree that anyone can make a mould of a turd, and that it would have to commercial value and thus would require no response when being copied. Yet neither you nor I are in the business of shaping turds, and shaping quality holds take time.
Turd or not, I will never copy another's shape, and I have no doubt that you will neither.

Regards your comment on my response on fb:
Referring to Arjan's hints and suggestions, perception and interpretation is a subjective thing. Personally I lose my sense of humour when people hint at copying others' creative work. There's a whole army of artists in the world that would feel the same way. Yet it is subjective, and I respect your opinion.
You will note in the fb debacle that I did apologise for over reacting. Ebert's and Arjan's decision to decline the apology is their own free choice, as is Ebert's decision to bring the conv. into this post. It would be nice of Ebert to give the whole picture of posts resulting from this subject though - just to present a balanced picture to the audience of what turned into a real s#itfight. I was quite surprised that Ebert, as the great fb antagonist (if you follow him you will know what I am talking about) could take my response so personal - it was quite unexpected.
My offer to the both of them to make peace over a beer still stands.
I hope we can put this whole fb thing to rest now, and stick to the subject.

How about gecko, moonstone and the new siekstick manufacturers. I will appreciate your take on others copying holds (not referring to an individual incidents, but to the principle).

Typo of the day award!

(sorry off topic, but it amused me)

Franz, I'm going to start by saying that I completely understand where you are coming from with regards to the ethics of the situation; however, regardless of the fact that this was discussed in a public forum or not the threat of someone copying your design is always going to be there. Having a small company in South Africa and providing your service to a small industry can put you in a very sensitive situation when it comes to discussing your subjective opinions in a public forum, especially when you are discussing this with the very people that you provide your product to. I don't think this kind of behavior from a supplier is appreciated.

Taking this head on is just going to ruin your business image and I can guarantee you that it won't make people not copy your holds. As a result of this you have lost at least 2 clients and achieved nothing.

There are so many things that I look at that can be copied in one way or another and will usually work out cheaper. I usually end up weighing the costs versus the time and effort and decide whether its a project that is worth working on or not. I too have considered making my own climbing holds and I have decided that it's not something that I would consider investing time in. This means that your opportunity for business is still there. Not EVERYONE is going to be copying your holds and if they are you're doing something very right .

There are so many ways in which you could have dealt with this situation in that it could have benefited you yet you chose to fight it rather than embrace it.

Anyway, like I said, I understand the question of ethics and maybe a line was crossed but there is no reason why you can't embrace the situation and make good from it.

On a side note, Picasso once said that, "good artists copy, but great artists steal", implying that all artists are influenced by what has been done before and we all borrow from what has been done before. Surely when you decided to start manufacturing grips you were influenced by others designs. This would raise a question of ethics in itself.

I'm not against your opinions, it's just that there is more to it than just this. So unless you're going to willingly let Arjan or Ebert (no offense guys) just take over the manufacturing of climbing holds and blow you out of the water, please do continue to design and manufacture holds so that the rest of us can benefit from your work.

Cheers,
Shaun

Have to agree with Shaun

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Super Mario

I hear you Shaun, SuperM, well said.
I have spent enough career time in manufacturing to realise that original ideas will be copied. I live under no illusion. As to the effect on my business, I fully realise the extent of risk this brings, as I also realise the extent of selling to individuals who promise to copy my designs.
I have been giving away a surprisingly large amount of my manufactured holds (many of them for trial and test purposes, agreed), to folks like Exploratio (TUKS), and some lenders that went SANCF way for a while, and for a specific purpose. Recently WITS also got hold of one of my trial pieces for free... Suffice to say I am not doing this just to make a buck. As an industrial engineer with more experience than the age of the average high school kid, in light and heavy industry I can make a lot more money elsewhere. Yet, I am hoping to be into this for the long haul because I am a firm believer in the benefiits that climbing can have for what has become a lazy, couch and game besotted younger generation. Unfortunately the raw materials costs money, and requires a lot of time. I think its just fair to charge a fee for my labour. If people dont like my product, or if they want to boycott it because they dont like me, then they are welcome to. The result for me will be a few hours more sleep every night (rather than standing in front of volatile carcinogenic chemicals).
It does however concern me when well known reputable climbers start discussing the merits of copying designs on public forums. My original post here implicated no one by name. Someone else put names to it, and over that I do not have control.

I think this thread is not good for climbing. So I repeat and rephrase my previous suggestion:
Me, Ebert, and a few beers, sort the crap out, make peace (even if it is to agree to disagree). Likewise with Arjan, who got caught in the crossfire.

I have never met Arjan in person, and from previous publicity I think he is a cool guy. I know Ebert personally, and there are few blokes with more climbing psyche out there. We dont have to become blood brothers to peacefully co-exist, but there are statements that were made in public, that I believe we should address in private.

Now if Ebert, Arjan and I can come to some private agreement, then I would be happy to encourage the complete removal of this thread, because like you imply, its an embarrasment: to me, to ebert, to arjan, and to the SA climbing community in general (considering that climbers across the globe view this site).

Assuming that Ebert's facebook posts have some level of privacy control,
All I wanted to know (with this thread) was if the rest of the climbing community shares the thoughts of the [anonymously at that stage] "prominent climbers"

lets see what happens next...
1st prize for peace

PEACE!

_________________
Super Mario

ahwe SuperM!

all we need is love, man!
we should all really just stop this fighting crap. its so 2WW.

Frans, as I understand it, this whole thing started on Ebert's facebook wall. Aside from what people might think about facebook and its privacy settings, "Ebert's wall" on facebook (not the piece of it that he copy pasted) is a PRIVATE place where Ebert can leave messages for his friends to read and comment on.
No matter how cool you might believe Ebert to be, his facebook page is not a "public forum".

Was it not you who took a mole hill and tried to make a mountain by accusing Ebert and Arjan of stealing your designs on facebook and then posted your grievances (vs anonymous) on ClimbZA's Forum page (a public forum)?

Ethically, your argument is like accusing someone of theft for buying a mielie and then planting the seeds to grow a field of mielie plants for their personal supply.
In climbing, there are a couple variations of holds (jugs, crimps, slopers, pinches, etc.) There are only so many different ways that you can mould them into climbing holds. Some are going to look like ones that already exist. In fact, I've had a look at yours and some of them look a lot like climbing holds I've seen before (Don't worry, I'm not here to accuse you of stealing other people's designs). I'm sure that if you look at the "replicas" you will find that they are not exactly the same as the originals (colour, texture, exact shape) even if they were moulded from the real thing.

If you put your name on the holds and others copy them, you might even get some free publicity out of it, but this is nothing like the MadRock vs ClimbX fiasco that's been going on for the last few years.

You have commercial interest in manufacturing climbing holds, one can see that you put time and effort into your holds from the pictures. "Helping a brother out" and trying to save a buck or two by making their own holds is not going to impact your business. If your workmanship is good, even an "exact" replica will not be able to measure up. What Ebert and Arjan were discussing seems to me more like buying a piece of cord to make your own slings rather than buying some new ones.

Anyway, I don't think you handled the situation very well and playing the peace and love card after your initial colourful outburst (which, for someone who has "more experience than the age of the average high school kid", was petulant and uncalled for) seems to me to be a poor attempt to put out the fire that you started and puts a bit of a dent in your credibility.

_________________
...Chalk is cheap...

I sincerely hope for all of you parts that not one of these jugs remotely looks like an APPLE. Cuz then you'd be in real shit.

Honestly, I think it is a storm in a tea cup and speaks more to an insecure business and -model than what it does about ethics. If it can be recreated so easily then you lack a good solid product offering. Is the design your product's only competitive advantage? You then sell a weak product at a surcharge and are bound to be copied if it is good enough and can be created at far less of your cost. In this case, there is also no profit involved. If he had to start his own company now selling a grip that he made using your design, yes, I would side with you. I see asolutely no issue here.

This is just on face value though, but seeing that you made it a public debate, I happen to be a "public" and enjoy debating when I am bored.

As a matter of fact I think Arjan and Ebert has a better case against you for Crimen Injura!

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Strangers have the best candy!

hope this is a clever free advertising ploy...if yes, weldone Franz!....if no...uush, get over it dude you are wasting your time. Its hardly copying, much like a carpenter making a door or a table.

Amazing that there is market in SA for one hold "*manufacturer"....3 or 4 is just freaking crazy!

There are even chaps in PE & EL making holds..WTF!

yes im commenting again as per request.

Explo WILL NOT USE copied holds under any condition. (when i post, dont mix EBERT NEL with EXPLO, im an individual, not a club)

I however will copy your grips if i felt like wasting my time @franz

@ babycoat
I WOULD NOT CALL giving +- 10 grips sponsoring! and once again, im not EXPLO

Ebert Nel

I have uncapped internet so that i can PIRATE everything

I wanted opinions from the climbing community and I am getting them.

I wont discuss the ebert/arjan posts further, anyone who wants an answer to that already has a looong thread to read, and besides, it is somewhat off topic & will not add to an amicable ending.
At the risk of sounding like a stuck LP I would still like to invite both Arjan and Ebert for a beer and a peace pipe, and a way to settle this whole thing (in which all of us acted stupid at one stage or another).

@Funguye: The legal issues are always iffy, and its merits is not something I will discuss on a public forum. I have other advantages to design, you are welcome to talk to me in another forum about that if you like. You're welcome to debate away the boredom, dude. That's what these forums are for.

@mullet: regards the commercial interest - the pics you saw are way outdated. most are trashed long ago because they were really crap. About helping a brother out - if you ever need holds but dont want the retail price tag, come to my possie. I will teach you, and you may make as many shapes out of my moulds as your heart desires. just dont copy my molds behind my back using substandard materials (and yes my logo does feature most often), having stuff that breaks with my name on it. Yeah, my initial burst was quite colourful. I do however believe that peaceful solutions are always better.

@Marshall: As one of the old hands I really respect your opinion. clever advertising ploy..... I will leave you pondering it. Yeah, there are a whole bunch of hold manufaturers out there. Enough to start a guild

@Ebert.

Cool dude, I take it as a peace offering. Peace man. We dont need to love each other to bits to co-exist. No hard feelings. The beer offer still stands.

What is this LP of which you speak?

I guess it's fortunate that the first company ever to some up with the idea of moulded resin holds didn't patent the concept (as someone said, earlier no doubt Apple would have!) allowing for an open and creative market (a bit like Open Source?).

@Chris: hehe, and LP is long player. It is a flat vinyl disc (and called a Vinyl in many countries) much like a CD, but a lot bigger. old people used it to play cool tunes from artists like Uriah Heap and Frank Zappa at home and at parties in their youth.
Good thing the first guy did not patent, the climbing industry would have been a lot smaller

then on another tune:
This is my unsolicited epilogue, my conslusion to this matter:

I posted this thread to get an opinion, and specifically to guage where the community stands on the subject because it has an effect on my business. I got the response I wanted, but I also got a whole lot more (which was not wanted, but should have been expected). Thank you to the contributors that gave straight answers, and to those who brought humour into this thing.

I did not intend to publicly insult or embarrass anyone in the climb.co.za community and apolgise if this post resulted in insults or embarrassment. Along with others, I treated myself like a swine. We can not reverse time, but we can change our future behaviour. I trust that the community will take the post in that light.

I did not intend this to be for self promotion or as a clever publicity stunt either (sorry to disappoint you Marshall), but in reality it was good for business.

Peace, love, freedom.

Some free IP from me: this post is released under v3.0 of the GNU GPL http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html
(Can you even release IP under a software license? Who knows, but anyway. This is free, as in beer)

Someone mentioned "(standing in front of volatile carcinogenic chemicals)." From this comment I can conservatively deduce that the holds in question are made of polyester resin and some type of filler.

Firstly, polyester resin holds mostly suck. Why? you ask
Cons:
1. Polyester (a.k.a fiberglass) resin is, as above, volatile and carcinogenic. If you get the amount of catalyst added wrong, it very successfully self-combusts. If you breathe the stuff too much, you die early. It smells, a lot.
2. Polyester resin is heavy. Not a problem you say, you bolt them to the wall right? Yes. But from the second you start pouring into the mould, the resin starts sinking to the bottom, pushing the filler out of the texture that you've got in your mould and leaving only resin in the textured surface layer. Ever notice that the hold surface (skin side) is slightly shiny but the back of the hold (the flat side) has, what looks like a better mix of filler and resin? That is because of the density difference between the resin and the filler. The filler 'floats'.
3. Polyester resin has a natural glossy/shiny feel to it - I guess that's why the use it to build jetskis right?
4. Polyester resin is, when cured, lank hard but also very brittle. You've seen them shatter when they fall or crack when over-torqued.
5. Cures slow in comparison to other resins (hours vs mins) - giving the resin/filler mix more time to separate.

Pros: Cheap

So instead you use Polyurethane resin. Pros:
1. Hard
2. Strong
3. Not so poisonous
4. Not brittle (it squeezes when you overtorque instead of cracking - the washer ends up waaay bent before the hold breaks)
5. Lighter - so closer in density to most fillers, meaning the filler/resin mix stays more mixed while the holds goes through early curing.
6. Has a natural matt texture

Cons:
1. Expensive
2. Pricy

About moulding, casting, etc process in general:
These guys sell their process ebook for $20. Worth it I reckon: http://www.threeballclimbing.com

About fillers:
To minimise resin costs (its expensive yo), nearly every hold manufacturer (the ones that don't want to go bankrupt anyway) use a filler - an inactive powder/fiber - added to the resin mix to add volume. Light fillers 'float' on the resin, heavy fillers give better texture. Cut fiber fillers add tensile strength (and f*ck up your lungs, don't breathe them in). There are hold producers that are making pretty good quality holds in SA, from polyester resin nogal. Good texture without the shinyness. I think they use a higher density filler that doesn't float on polyester resin. If you use polyurethane resin you can use lighter fillers. I have had great texture success with glass bubble fillers (don't breathe that either).

About texture:
The best I've found is not the green 'oasis' or flower shop foam, but rather the rigid polyurethane foam that they use for thermal insulation. There is a company in Apex, Benoni called Rigifoam that manufacters rigid PU foam for insulating truck bodies and cold rooms. They have a pile of this stuff (offcuts) behind their factory that they'll give you loads of if you ask them. They throw it away. This stuff is the real deal - this is what oversees companies sell as 'hold shaping foam' - check out http://www.threeballclimbing.com/climbi ... g_foam.htm

About moulds:
Make them with pouring silicone. Bubbles aren't your friend.

Want to try your hand? It's not that hard. Loads of stuff on the interwebs... http://www.alumilite.com/howtos/Molding ... gHolds.cfm

Where to buy stuff? Company called Techoresin (also on the East Rand) sells all different types of resin, silicone, casting supplies and products. Also good is AMT composites - their sales guys are very helpfult with info and application details. Get cheap latex gloves from Dischem, the shit (especially the dyes) sticks to your hands like anything.

We at CityROCK have actually decided to only use Polyurethane grips at our gym.
They are SOOOO much better than Polyester....

Problem is we can't get them locally. So we have to import SoILL, eGRIPS, Metolius from the USA.
If you make any local Polyurethane grips contact me. We may buy some.....

- Robert

check out the new EXPLORATIO bouldercave at TUKS sports grounds, filled with resin8 grips made by Paul, I rate this is the best bouldercave in the country! soon to be extended more, WATCH THIS SPACE!!!

ebert nel
building the future with resin8 grips