Do you have some non-crapberry photos?

YES

check it out on:
http://www.facebook.com/RunoutsInAfricaPhotography
if u can guess the size about, will post proper spec phots later:)

Ebert Nel
with your psyche we building the future larger

Here's an opinion for you Franz.
(because you asked)

If I look at say the fashion industry.
People buy dresses for R5000.00 knock them off in china for a 16th of that.
Then bring them back here to sell at 'half price'.
It's pretty much the same dress. but, not really.
If you went to a swarve-do and someone with the original stood next to you.
People would notice. The fabric has a different quality, texture and colour.
The needle works not quite the same.
Having a dress knocked off, is the sign of a great designer.
How else would they get the masses that can't afford thier 'look' to style in it.

It happens in every industry.
Enter the 3-d scanner and copying machine!
Manufacturings future is en-route to Big changes.

But, I think with climbing holds, the shape is not such an issue.
I mean If I wanted my bathroom soap holder as a climbing hold?
I don't think I'd be a thief for copying the shape, it would be creative.
The manufacturing process, is another story.
If I purchased a hold, I'd want it to be of high quality.

So I understand if these dudes are copying your holds, and you now have
shite craft out there, with your name on it.
But, for the shape... not really.

Keep making quality holds Franz.
and put the effort into new designs.
If these dudes (high end climbers) are selecting to copy your holds, be proud.
Think of all the people who are going to be cranking on them,
thinking Wow, this is the shape I need on my dinning room walls.
"where can I get one, oh franz ! "

So presuming this is a clever advertizing ploy, prehaps to consider some sort of method of taking orders....Franz &/or Paul. I'll take two of each that are marked.

I hear you David! Thanks for the feedback.

A couple of years ago the cape and durban had a thriving textile industry providing jobs to many. That's before China flooded the market, and our government chose not to protect the industry. These factories were quite unprotected altogether, since China is not a signatory to international patent, design ad IP agreements. (By the way, neither is Namibia)
Today we have copied products, legally produced through minor variation, and no textile industry.
The jobs it provided are no more. Legal - yes. Best for SA? you be the judge.
Still, minor design changes are normally the thing making a copy legal. Ask anyone in the boating manufacturing industry.

Making a 15% design change to a hold may be more effort that actually shaping one from scratch. Either way, you will have something different.

I agree with your comment on having copies made with inferior raw materials. Guess that's the biggest issue.

peace

Hey Franz,

Not that I know too much about the textile trade.
But, I thought our govt. slapped a 70% import tax on textiles,
to try and protect the local manufacturing market.

I guess it's a tricky thing, making clothes more expensive for South Africans,
while our local factories probably couldn't compete with China anyway.

I did hear that a big label shut a factory in Mauritius down,
because of 'cabbages', over runs the factory would produce, and then sell off out the back door.
They're a part of the SADC, and I think that makes them exempt from that import tax.
Our factories might have been squeezed out, because of production in the SADC?

Although, I don't know much about it and probably shouldn't comment.

good luck with the climbing holds.
D

For climbing to grow, we need more facilities, for facilities to grow and take us closer to the rest of the World we need to develop expertise, materials and product to support this grow. All people that put effort in should be commended. At the end of the day their success will be as a result of their efforts and the success they have in attracting and retaining customers.

The World is becoming an ugly place as is evident by this post. Ethics in our society now posses some big questions. What is and is not ethical. Think about this in the context of our country. "Do you pay the fine or do you pay the cop?" Please don't take this example to literally, I am trying to make a point. If I don't get caught or I will not suffer any legal consequence of my actions then its OK, by our new SA standards.

Then the way every one went at each other, it was like an old school Paintball forum. I could not believe this is climbing.

The biggest attraction to climbing for me has been the type of people the sport attracts. I've always found climbers to be very honest and they generally have less trouble figuring out what is ethically right. At the end of the day it is not what you say on the forum but rather what you do that counts and people then form opinions and they tend to stick.

Of coarse you can copy, I've carved more than 100 original grips, made molds and made a bunch of grips for myself, it takes time, effort and costs money. People need a large range of grips at a good price and that is a bit of a challenge as our market is small. For these very small specialized enterprises to take of and succeed they need support.

Copying is not cool.

I have spent some time on the net looking for the various local products being supplied, I like Robert prefer polyurethane. I would be interest in hearing from the various manufacturers as I have no real interest in making my own grips.

i like this post, enlightens people

run out of words or customers franz?

I'm pretty sure he sold a bunch of grips to Southern Rock.

Ebert, you should take this argument offline. Its irritating and childish

IRATE get a trad rack. Climb what's infront of you and stop bitching about plastic grips. Honestly, its like listening to lil kids. "Give me back my grips" "ok I will. Just first give me back the photos of me"
Blablabla. 38 posts later: plastic grippies plastic grippies plastic grippies. Do have any idea how much unclimbed rock is out there. Oh but there's no grades on those to go home and brag about, is there?

Actually find climbing on plastic quite pure. It's not like I've got anything to log on 8a after sending my gym project! Just me, holds, and doing the hardest moves I can.

I cant take it offline, he lives in ermelo and i had to defriend him on facebook coz he was attacking arjan;) lol what an epic...

i love it paulB:D in the end of the day, u get strong on plastic and convert it too rock, well thats how they do it these days if you havnt been informed:P Grips ARE THE KEY ELEMENT in this, and i just like reminding frans that copying grips might be an option for him as surely they will use a different resin, grips floating on water aint gonna get u nowhere

ebert nel
my grips sink

Climb what you want, its up to you in the end. But to get so serious about kak is beyond me. What ever happened to climbing to have fun?

I already have one
but I like plastic too!

On a more serious note:
For the past two years or so I have been supplying holds to explo for FREE (for the simple minds among us, that means holds for mahala).
Here was the deal:
I do experiments with shapes and material. Explo plays with it and lets me know what is crap and what is good. Until recently it worked well.
Exploratio (A club of the university of pretoria) has never paid for a single hold I supplied.

That last hold Ebert posted is mine. You can see my logo on it. I recently tried to get away from crude oil as my source material and tried a new acrylic resin. The result was a disaster. I knew the material was crap, but I was curious to see how long it will last. As Ebert announced (very publicly) it broke. It does not surprise me.

I am a very loyal supporter of Explo, and climbed their wall for the first time as a student in 1994. I love the club and will continue to be involved in their activities whenever I can. I am very much looking forward to next years beginners weekend!

Having my experimental holds on explo's wall however, has now become bad for business. Today I requested the chairperson of Explo to remove it and return it for me.
I will find another venue to continue my testing, where the individual club membersdisplay better discretion and ethics. I don't expect Ebert to be around for long - most varsity students either drop out, stop climbing, or forget explo after graduating. Once Ebert becomes a less vocal voice in the club I will discuss supplying experimental holds to their wall once again.

Regards SA's other hold manufacturers: When you read this, remember that there are a few hold manufacturers in SA that are trying to make a living off it full time. I am doing this for the love of it and I do not rely on it for my survival. I thus deliberately priced myself to not be the cheapest to avoid price wars with the full time guys. I encourage everyone to consider the full time hold manufacturers - be loyal to them an our sport will grow. promise.

Ebert, I'm asking you in the nicest way possible: Please stop your very subjective comments. Lets go have a beer and make peace.

Viva Exploratio!

peace, love freedom
Franz

Hi Franz
I dont want to stir & and I find the whole topic rather strange, but,,, if you have grips you need tested you can allways send them to bloem! We seriously need more grips!
Hopefully this doesnt start a fight between us and explo..(we only need the grips to train harder, to beat explo in next years Everest Challenge)
Thanks

Frans im not gonnna read ur long message, remember u started this topic, We (explo) appreciate ur grips, I (ebert) also appreciate them aswell, maybe however if you gonna rave about giving us (explo) grips then you would give us some of your proper grips coz as i see it, every hold you have donated too us (explo) has been scrap holds where either the texture is not proper or the molds you made them from were still in the beginning phases. The ONLY REASON WHY I (Ebert Nel) keep pushing with this topic is because YOU STILL HAVENT DELETE YOUR STUPID TOPIC about piracey of grips WHICH NOBODY IS EVEN DOING, mainly because RESIN8 grips are so good, you would be stupid to buy grips from another supplier.

Ebert NEL (NOT EXPLORATIO)
I like arguing, sorry for the stir frans, now end it and delete this topic

now that i have actually bothered skimming over your post, HOW MANY BUSINESSES DO YOU SEE GIVING AWAY LESS THAN PERFECT STOCK AND THEN EXPECT GOOD COMMENTS ON IT? Iv seen your range of grips you sell, EXPLORATIO DOES NOT HAVE ONE OF THEM, wich leaves us with testing grips...

just a thought

Ebert Nel
Remove the TOPIC AND ILL STOP COMMENTING LIKE A NOOB