With 1 or 2 exceptions its the same old crowd of wrinkled crankers (careful how u say that) at the crags, has been like that for years. The other day I was at Chos, the average age of those present was 41, I worked it out!! Where are all the up and coming young climbers - I never see any at the crags. I hear so much about the SANCF but where are they? If they all just gym climbers on weekdays and weekends then whats the point? It might make the trainers feel good to have a winning team but unless the kids find a real passion are they benefitting long term? Its unlikely that they will stick it out after they leave school, for the bug to bite trips to the crags are essential. Dylan Vogt is about the only youngster from Joburg who cranks outside too. Capetown and Durbs seems better. There are a few in Pta, something to do with a good wall at Tuks and Paul from the Barns energy. I dream of the day when I walk into the God No or Chospile and see some unknown kid from Benoni on one of the hard routes there. Anyone got any ideas?

Andrew

Very true!

Whats the age limit for the unkown kid?

Andrew who won Rock Rally? They are out there, but kids lack one freedom you might take for granted: transport. I agree that more needs to be done to get kids outdoors, however when I started climbing there were over 30 std 6's who joined for the first term, and when we matriculated there were just three still climbing, of which only two of us continue to climb (Dave Richardson being the other). We were considered a good year of climbers at Thomas More.

The fact of the matter is for most participants climbing fits a period of life, while for other people it becomes a life. It makes sense for kids to want to do it as a schools sport because it pigeon holes who they are and what they are doing for that stage of life, but surviving a change, like Matric/graduation/marriage/bond/kids/age is harder. The symptom of this subconscious thinking is kids not going to crags, even though many well tell you that once they are at varsity/ working they will, in fact this rarely happens as other priorities take over.

We were lucky to have Gerald Camp as our climbing "coach" at school: his psyche for climbing had us at the crags around Durban at least once a week on an after school trip, and this would grow to us heading out on weekends too, by asking mom for a ride somewhere.

I don't think you can blame SANCF for this as their mandate is competition. I think it is schools, parents but primarily the kids themselves that make this happen for themselves. One of the big carrots Gerald dangled in front of us was a long road trip somewhere. These gave us cause to hit the local crags so that when the trip happened we were ready.

To the credit of Tristan I think the Renegade Tour type trips are excellent for creating motivation for kids, however that was too top end for school climbers like me, who found 20s to walk past, or perhaps get frustrated on. We were lucky that the teachers in Durban wanted the kids outside, and so organized winter camps to places like Shongweni, with easy access from home but lots of climbing. There is no reason why schools round JHB can't organize week long camps to Magalies, or Bronkies. These multi-school events were important meeting places for kids, passing numbers and finding climbers in their area.

Grass roots solutions remain the best solution, and in this case its motivated schools, kids and coaches. Please read my signature.

_________________
If you aren't willing to solve your own problems, how can you expect others to?

Warren, aside from about 4 youngsters, they are not out there, the are in there (in the gym). Trust me I live here.
Transport is tricky as you say, but if we can afford to fly them to Signapore for a week ...we could rent a van and a coach for a year..
Dont get me wrong, I think SANCF is a good thing but if only we could get them out more. I have even resorted to taking some of these kids out myself on a a couple of occassions.
What also makes it difficult is the lack of a decent gym in JHB where climbers properly mix and develop.

So open one?

all you need is group that everybody uses to communicate climbing movements and therefore invite people along. (this is in connection to getting more people out on rock)

Ebert Nel
going to nglabatini this weekend for the onslaught

You can take a horse to water... But we're not talking horses are we. I've done all sort to get kids motivated, take them on trips, pic them up for weekday craging, befriend the parents etc. Strangely enough the one who stuck around the longest and still climbs is the one I gave a hard time. I told him if he doesn't make the effort I don't give a sh#t. I made him Climb whatever I was doing(not that that is hard to keep up with). After his friends stopped trying he climbed till his fingers bled. I think that's cause he worked for it and respect was earned not handed out with the party pack as you came in the door.

The rock will always be there and people will be drawn to it whether You/we are there or not. I think it may be vanity to consider ourselves "gate keepers" of the passage to high places.

On the other hand maybe all the old folks are just scaring the kids.

Garvin
PS there were no party pack, only my backpack and that we took turns at carrying.

Ebert Nel
i agree with this one being a big, not that im not young, over confident, egotistic, etc, but we just kids, we full of motivation the old dont get and then its used against us. NOT LOOKING FOR AN ARGUMENT PLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, this is an opinion. Im just a kid learning one day at a time.

What if there was a weekend (once a month) where all the kids are invited to spend a day or two at a crag with old farts... ment mentors . Where they get together and project routes, get advice, taught old tricks or new ones, just spend a day of good fun and good climbing. Should be different crags each month.

Every generation querries the generation that follows

Hey Ebert

Come to Cape Town for a week and see how motivated some of the ''old'' folk are. We GET it bigtime, and are super motivated to still climb hard and still have fun.
There are loads of 40 plus, 50 plus ballies who are still motivated to train hard in the gym twice a week, then go and send their projects on the weekends.
But you did say it was only your opinion.

But andrews right, i would still like to see more youngsters at the gym or at the crags.

One needs to take a good hard look at what Andrew is saying.

There are plenty of youth initiatives. I agree that the SANCF fills its mandate with regards competition climbing, so let's not hassle them.

So who should be running youth programmes? Well the MCSA in JHB runs a youth programme. Is it enough? Maybe not. There are plenty of new climbers on the scene & if you hang out at wonderwall, St Peters or even WITS bouldering cave you will see what the demographics tell you...the sport is mostly for students & yuppies...they have time, transport & more cash...its logical

Married people & people with kids can afford to climb (generally) but there is no time.

School kids on the other hand normally do not have cash or transport (most likely little gear either) so are they likely to be doing trad...unlikely...generally though they can get to gyms (moms & dads stretch that far)...so the point is what Andrew said...how do you get the cream of the crop from the gyms & get them out onto rock?

Mentorships the old fashioned way. Normally if you show talent (& are willing to try make a plan) then some older climbers invite you along. Taking into account what Ebert says (all old climbers are old farts who cant climb- paraphrase), if the school kid finds someone who always wants to crank it hard...they exist in that demographic group of students & yuppies...then they get to the places where they can climb like the best...

Andrews search for another formula requires a dedicated programme...& I suspect would end up relying on the old farts that Ebert says are past their best & that he doesn't want to climb with because they encourage everyone to be too soft....reason why...cause the other demographic group of students & yuppies are too busy cranking hard themselves to spend time babysitting a bunch of kids...

Once again what other people have already said on the forum...if you are a keen scholar or student you need to find those people out there who want you along...

For the rest of us (oldies or whoever) we need to look around & invite along delightful young people to encourage them to be the new standard...people like Ebert & hopefully the cream of the crop will rise to the top - just like andrew wants

_________________
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

Mentorship is great, but kids think they know everything and if they don't know it, it can be googled. So they, generally speaking, don't want some guy telling them what to do."Youth is wasted on the young" they say. A young student friend told me the other day(boven rock rally), if only he had listened to his teacher/mentor/ coach at school he would have been a lot further on. Thats mostly the way it will be, and yes there will be great exceptions and for that we will be glad.

Garvin

kids have other weekend sports and school based activities - there's always a major school sport running. In uni you realise the real adventure is outside and they get going. Dont worry.

im currently 17 years old and live in benoni (just east of joberg) and I would have to say that the only reason I got into rock climbing was because of my dad Darryl Margetts. He has a lot of experience which he shared with me and he explained to me why rock climbing is such an amazing sport. from there on the psych was unstoppable. Look at Dylan Vogt, his dad and grandfather climbed, they probably taught him a ton about climbing and then he saw the value of climbing outside. the result is that now he is probably the strongest youth climber under the age of 20 in South Africa. Youth climbers in the gym are not aware of why rock climbing is so amazing. When I speak to them at comps about rock climbing I get the feeling that they have no idea what im talking about. They need to be taught about rock climbing and understand it and of course taken out to climb on rock! then you will find youngsters at crags every weekend

From my own experience, being invited out climbing by older climbers at the gym was crucial. That and the 'One summer..' movie!

taking kids out is a huge responsibility. Still, it can and should be done.
Getting experienced climbers to join in such weekends to transfer their skill and wisdom, now there's the real challenge.

Speaking from personal experience.

When I coached Westville Girls I would take them to the crags on weekends: meet at school and split petrol. a simple, grass route solution. Gerald did this to us at Thomas More, Kloof high has a similar program last i heard, DHS gets out regularly thanks to their coaches. Old boys from the school clubs are also useful for these sorts of things.

the best way to get kids out isn't through MCSA or SANCF, as this isn't their primary focus. Schools/clubs/coaches/parents/old boys are a much better bet

_________________
If you aren't willing to solve your own problems, how can you expect others to?

thanks guys, all v interesting. I try to conclude:
not enough kids are getting out
not the fault of any of the organisation, they are doing their bit
more as a result of there no reall 'mixing' of us old farts with the youth
why no mixing...no real venue where we share a common ground. a gym.

Forget about leagues and clubs...a kick ass gym is the solution. anyone want to open a proper bouldering-only gym in Jozi with me?
Andrew

PS Ebert, I'm gonna klap you next time I see you, you youth!

i have to agree, if you look at a school like Noordheuwel in the WestRand, they made their own wall at school to train during the week, and on most weekends when possible they would take on a route, just remember most of these kids are crazy over weekends with other sports and stuff, so we do not always see them, as soon as they leave scool they become more vissible, like the winners of the rock rally.

a week long summer camp would be a great way to start with a friendly comp between schools or clubs...

i know this is easier said than done, but where there is a will there is a way.

_________________
take the leap, its worth the adventure

For the kids themselves i suppose it does depend on what schools they are at: my school basically said "we are willing to offer these sports for this amount of time per year. If you want more than that sort yourself out, but tell us what you up to or we will impose some team sport on you." It provided flexibility but demanded proof and a display of enthusiasm, which I think is fair. Climbing was a 2 term sport, but if you were psyched enough they were happy for us to keep doing our own thing. to me this makes sense as no one scores out of demanding some mainstream activity from the kids when the kids would rather do something else.

I suppose it comes down to what sort of school it is.

_________________
If you aren't willing to solve your own problems, how can you expect others to?

AndrewP:

Climbing is not sexy or cool. Period. Trad climbing is even less sexy than sport climbing. Not enough accolades. Paul Goddard talks about 40 year old ballies motivated and cranking but we all grew up seeking adventures and that was trad. (And that was you too). All we had was Biggles, the Secret 7, The Hardy boys, The Hobbit, the The restaurant at the end of the Universe, rock, music, Packman and then the PC game Doom came along.

We then moved on to cranking hard or at least harder numbers on Sport and Bouldering.

Now why would a youngster go and bother cranking outdoors when there are no real accolades or awards? So much more sexy or cool things to do. Now they have a gazillion gadgets, phones, games, vampire stories Harry Potter, Facebook, email and when they are little older, Clubbing. Way too many cool things to do that make you lazy and fat. Even I spend at least 2 hours a day interacting on Email or some other internet media. Like this forum. Climbing is too unconventional, too expensive and inaccessible and down right too difficult for kids to pursue. I own a gym partly and my kids are not really psyched never mind climbing outside. But they do enjoy the big adventurous walks we do.

Snort, normally you are right but this time not, thats a crock. Do you not keep track of what goes on overseas? go to www.8a.nu - on any given day there is a movie on a comp climbing festival, the youth out there loves it. Download the Sportiva legends clip and tell me that is not exciting and cool! The guys arrive to the comp in a freakin Limo! I have a good friend who manages the Works in Sheffield, its all about youth and comps and parties and yes, even trad is sexy. And these cool kids love it all, sport, boulder and trad. As much as I respect your old school ideas, you may have lost contact with the current face of the sport. Climbing is the sexiest sport there is! We just need to work on its image here. Put a BIG gym in Jozi and you will see. Yes, I should do it. Got a million bucks? We would work well together ;

I have to agree with both of you...

But why not make an effort to promote the sport, hold the NBL finals in a public place and not a little old gym, take it to Mandela square, get sponsors involve, and promote the sport...

Most guys don't even know where to start or what to do to get into the sport. If it wasn't for friends like Ruan Kotze and Adam Swanepoel that told me where i could go to start i would have never gotin into it.

If you look at most of the Boulder champs Vids accross the world they are open to public and the sport grows there.

You don't need a million bucks you only need Marketing of the sport....

_________________
take the leap, its worth the adventure

Andrew p you are missing my point and I did not make myself clear. I meant that it is not sexy locally.

What you described below is how it becomes cool when and if it is commercialized and commodotized and branded which it is becoming more and more. Like arriving in a Limo!

Sport, adventure and leisure activities are almost totally commodotized now. Just think of Everest and Kili and the X-games etc. Once there is money, there is reward and award and glitz and glamour exactly what you just described such as arriving in a Limo. There is TV and media exposure and you have the reel rock tour and the Banff movies.

We are hosting the Rock Master comp on Saturday.

If you want to compete with the other so-called Adventure or X sports, then you gotta hold events and the like and throw big money. Cyclists must have hundreds of events around the country all year round and SA has the largest cycle race in the world - the Argus. The cost of that event must run into hundreds of millions if you include all the transport, accommodation, prizes bikes and kit. There is a serious trade show every year before it starts.

If you wanna get the youth to climb then you gotta have gyms, events, accolades awards and rewards. That is also what 8a.nu is about but I can assure there are villages of people in the Alps that climb as hard or harder than many people at the top of the 8a.nu list. My ideas are not at all old school. It would be a contradiction seeing as I am a part owner of CR that promotes exactly what you are talking about. I merely made an observation.

Yes build a decent gym in JNB - I mean a decent one, and you will attract the youth. But it is not a million dude. More like 15. And then you gonna have to sweat for 10 years to make it work. And then build about 10 in and around Gauteng. And work for nothing for years.

Having said all that, I don't believe you can sell climbing to anyone in South Africa really as it just does not have the public appeal and the depth of support that other sports have. At least not yet. CR does make climbers but for every 20 people that tries it and even buys some kit I doubt 1 sticks and even less after 5 years. You can be nurtured into it and mentored into it or merely just find it. I found climbing through Boy Scouts (also pretty uncool these days) and then Varsity.

Schools bring groups to CR but it is really only two very wealthy private schools that really make it here and one provides it as a subject.

As for the youth bouldering organizations. Those exist almost exclusively because of the serious passion and commitment of one or two dudes who also have some resources and a lot of organizational skills and personality and plenty of TIME. I can think of one Neil Margett's. Once they move on there is usually a decline. Commerce or an organizational entity such as a Varsity club needs to be behind the process and it has to be entrenched in the constitution of those entities to survive. Even at CR, we tend to hold only ad hoc events depending on the energy of the owners, and managers. It is never systematic although we are getting there. Robert is putting a huge amount of time and energy to implement regular events.

I agree with you! Build gyms, hold events, provide accolades, make a noise in the media, provide incentives and the kids will come.

My kid climbs. He's awesome company. Cranks hard, very psyched for trad, bouldering, bolting & prefers to climb with the old baalies. Refuses absolutely to attend comps, rallys or other BS(shew! relief). ....long may this dream last forever, you never know when the wind blows the other way.

With kids there are no rules. It helps to keep it cool, fun, light & real. Expect them to man-up ...carry big(drill/rack+), no soft soaping. Include, involve, ...but no presure.

THEY IN PRETORIA (answer to the post)

ebert
lol

Erudite as ever Ebert!

As far as I am concerned the SANCF is the organisation to organise indoor climbing comps & get youth psyched about climbing in a gym. The obvious issue is the transition to rock...who takes them to Boven where they can climb until their arms fall off...do they take themselves...

Look at the reality...it seems to me that some young guys have joined the Magaliesberg section of the MCSA...easy according to what Ebert says...you don't even need to attend meets so that the club know who you are...clearly an advantage for some... ...& then off to Mhlabitini to do some hard cranking...you don't even need to be polite to the guys who are helping get your routes bolted...

So youth always have a go at the system...it still poses the question...who gets them onto the rock...clearly not themselves...

I see comps as a great way of promoting climbing & making it appealing...but there is something to the fact that you will find lots of female climbers in the gym & few on the rock...its a social thing...

The answer may be more roc rally type events...this gets more kids on the rock & is more visible...with a much bigger marketing drive one may even reach the public...

_________________
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

they in asia:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=389800704410456

ebert
this is actually worth watching

The next generation is alive and well, thanks to the efforts of a few who do more than 90% of promoting climbing as a sport and making it accessible to the youth. There are the Guys like Paul and myself who own "Not so decent Gym's" and people like Jackie and Brett who give up a ton of their time to introduce and train some amazing kids. The speed at which they progress is quite amazing.

A lot do get out to the crags, but obviously not as often as the more seasoned climbs for most of the obvious reasons already put out there. Kids seem to come into their own between the ages of 13 and 17 years of age. At this age they depend on their parents to finance their sports and interest, to climb outside you need gear. Then you need a parent or friend that shares their interest, you need the transport and a supportive parent that has some one they will entrust their kids safety with.

If the plan is to get more Kids on to the Rock quicker it is going to require that every one involved works together, something that has always proved to be a challenge in climbing. There is no shortage of people with great ideas about what others should be doing.

Gym's serve a purpose, they push the volumes and identify the talent. They together with the coach's encourage and grow this talent. They also introduce younger climbers to other more experienced climbers and the rock.

My suggestion would be that the more experience climbers like Andrew should spend a little time in the "not so descent" Gym's where they could meet and inspired younger climbers. We are very fortunate that we have a number of very good climbers that are pushing grades who do spend time in the "Not so descent Gym's" and inspire the younger ones.

The "Not so Descent Gym's" over resent years have produced some really, really strong climbers like Dylan.

Who knows if we could work together we could get the critical mass required to take the sport to the next level. Every one is good at something, together we could be good at everything.