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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:21 pm 
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Me thinks Logic DOES have an honest complaint here:

The complaint of exclusivity that he is obscuring under (valid) ecological sentiment.

I think Logic was one of the original developers, and is now upset that his private play-area has been broadcast to the masses.

:mrgreen: amiright?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:40 pm 
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Hann,

Exclusivity= few people.
Why broadcast in the first place, what do you ultimately stand to gain?

I possibly hate people.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:48 pm 
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Hann

Have you been? If it was your private play spot, I reckon you'd say the same thing.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:06 pm 
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So it is true.....

But gentlemen, in my case you are preaching to the choir.

If I discover and develop an area I would be livid if some half-wit pronounced it as open to the world.

And to accentuate Logics last statement:
"The more I learn of people, the more I love my dog"

But more importantly.
In an attempt to answer Logics question I theorize the following:

Some homosapiens have such low self esteem, that, in order to feel self worth, they have a need to be noticed, a need equal to breathing.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:42 pm 
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i see your point, my point being, just like a protester, ur arguments are futile, u probs even marketed the festival so greatly now that the large participation would be due to this post which leads to YOU being the cause of the greater damage to the environment, but maybe thats just my logic

ebert
some of us even use our real names


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:59 pm 
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Real Name: Henk Grobler
@Jurie: baie geluk man! Jy bring n slag n behoorlik deurdagte argument - lekker.

Wonder net hoekom jy die event en metodiek hier ondersteun:

Logic December 6, 2012 at 2:58 pm #
"Dankie manne.Dit is hoe dinge gedoen moet word.Ek waardeer julle inisiatief.Kom ons vat klim vorentoe."

?!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:11 pm 
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Henk,

Dankie vir die ondersteuning.

Ek is totaal en al gekant teen die byeenkoms en alle soortgelyke byeenkomste. My stelling wat jy aanhaal is een van pure sarkasme.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:21 pm 
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Ebert,

Your logic is insufferably flawed and your argument so ill constrained that I do not know what to say to you, seriously.

I do not know if you are befriended with the objects of my disgust and thus direct your anger at me out of solidarity towards your friends, in any event, you obviously do not know what you are talking about.

Jurie


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:40 am 
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Real Name: Neil Margetts
I see the truth is out!! So Unio also knows the secret location, but he unlike Guy wants to keep it for himself!! Perhaps he has put up a huge environmental smoke screen to hide his disappointment that he has to now share! It is understandable that he is so mad, this place is awesome.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:25 pm 
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Logic: ill keep this short so u get it. U ARE MARKETING THE EVENT SO MUCH, even the pretoria crowd is keen to come check out this new spot. Your marketing leads to more people going to the event and doing more destruction to nature, which implies that your argument is doing more destruction to nature. IF YOU STILL DONT GET ME, go to Wikipedia or google and search: "Negative campaigning". Maybe i should use bigger words.

Ebert
thanks for the marketing this event Logic


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:40 pm 
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Ebert,

Firstly, you seem to significantly over estimate the so-called "publicity" raised by my posts, grossly so.

Secondly, you continue to affirm the consequent in your reasoning. (Please consult Wikipedia).

Lastly, Neil, you are a delusional consumer blinded by social derivatives you possibly stand to gain through your involvement.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:51 pm 
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think the best way to approach this is to attend the event


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:13 pm 
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I didnt give the even a seconds thought.
Actually, was not even aware of it before this debate.

But now i'll attend for sure :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:27 am 
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hann, if you attend i'm going to replace those bolts on arrow final :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:36 am 
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mok,

Eis.....

Seems I have been convinced to give this bouldering event a pass after all.

'twas interfering with trad time anyhow.....


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:45 pm 
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Dear Logic,

Please give Ebert's comments the respect they deserve - as do the other users of the forum.

I personally choose to remain anonymous as I believe that knowing who I am has no bearing on the validity of my arguments. I also find it insulting when people call me a troll :thumright I may not be as tall as some but really...

The point that you have made I believe is that this comp will accelerate the overuse of this bouldering area exponentially (the big words are for Ebert). One can & does see this in some Mountain Biking Areas & certainly where Quad bikes frequent an area. Now I am not saying that boulderers have that sort of impact but I see your point - this kind of impact would take years if it was a few careful users. I think the previously made point about the fishing is the only way forward from this though & maybe the organisers can try & get out some really well thought out guidelines.

As for future secret areas, I have always found that this does cause an unnecessary surge in use when the "word gets out" as suddenly everyone wants to go to the new area, so in fact even if one wants to keep an area secret it ends up having the reverse effect. My observation is making an area publically known when it has already been established & the ground rules put in place is the best way to go. Either that or never tell anyone but then someone else is likely to find it on their own.

There are no easy answers as everyone has some impact. Sure we need to limit it but once the cat is out of the bag proverbially speaking you can't very well put it back. So logic prevails: either keep the place secret or try & limit the impact :thumright

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 5:46 pm 
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Aaaah YES! I have not stirred this pot in many a moon! So lets have at it!! :twisted:
Logic's standpoint is totally correct and, um..., logical. Anytime a guide is published, anytime an area is popularised, even anytime an ascent is simply reported there is an implicit invitation to the masses to seek out that piece of rock and 'follow the leader'. Why we all seem to have this lamentable desire to be a bunch of mindless sheep is a mystery. What is not a mystery, is that the ground around that lump of rock will most assuredly get trampled, sat on, pissed and shat on and generally f-cked up over time. I really dont care how 'eco-friendly' the climbers visiting there think they are, the area will get violated, this is an indisputable fact! We will destroy what we came to enjoy!

The only solution to this dilemna is of course to never report an ascent, never publish what you have done or seen but simply to go out and explore in a purist fashion, without seeking any reward or recognition for your achievements in the battle with gravity. In this way the mystery is preserved forever. Each and every new visitor to an area will have the joys of discovery left intact and the land itself will breathe a huge sigh of relief, as we disperse in confusion and wanderlust. Maybe we all need to take a very cold hard look at why we climb and what we after 'out there'? Maybe (Ive said this before) climbers should learn a thing or two from surfers - NEVER reveal the location of a great spot.

I have read the above comments carefully, as Logic suggests, and I think its quite clear what is logical and who the whiners are here.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:20 pm 
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As climbers we ultimately destroy that which we love, merely by our presence there.

You would swear that the ethical questions in the video Abyss (below) were raised with this thread in mind?

Louder Than Eleven, provides an insider’s look at rock climbing development. Exploration of secret, alpine climbing terrain high above Colorado’s Front Range has created a flurry of debate regarding the philosophy, secrecy and ethics of development.
Abyss - North America's Highest Bouldering

Can you imagine what rock climbing would be like if no-one before us released any information about crags they had discovered or developed?

Are duty bound to do the same, or do we take the selfish approach and keep it all for ourselves?

I'm not sure a festival or competition will cause an enormous influx of activity; when did anyone last go bouldering at Agma Atra / De Doorns for example? When I was last there in late 2002 there was not a soul about, and according to the farmer there hadn't been anone in ages.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 7:54 am 
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Has the environmental impact of bouldering been investigated in the Cape?
I can imagine that boulders act as micro-climates for sensitive species like orchids.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:08 am 
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In the Cape Peninsula, it's in progress right now. The MCSA (volunteers within) are currently busy with an EMP - SANP are visiting 'most' bouldering areas to assess the locations. See this thread for more details :arrow: re-opening of Redhill?

An EMP is not necessary on private land (as is the case with the area in question).

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:18 pm 
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Justin wrote:
An EMP is not necessary on private land (as is the case with the area in question).


Yes, but it would be good to know what the impacts are in general, and what guidelines we should follow if we want to minimise them.
Someone should do a proper study on the impacts of bouldering in the Cape.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:40 pm 
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To say an EIA/EMP/KGB is unnecessary because its private land should be besides the point: right now we haven't done and audit to know what we are doing, and so are surviving on anecdotal evidence. what is to say that bouldering does irreversible damage to an area? We can't disprove this statement because no one qualified has spent time in the field to answer that scientifically.

We are dealing with a special biosphere, and it deserves respect as such. what amazes me is the biodiversaty we get just in the Peninsula, Peninsula Granite Fynbos for example (from Wikipaedia):
"This unique vegetation type occurs only within the city of Cape Town, particularly in a band that encircles the Table Mountain range – following the stratum of the Cape Granite Suite. It occurs from Lion's Head in the north, to Hout Bay and Muizenberg in the south. There is also an isolated patch near Simonstown, further to the south. [2] It grows on the gentler, lower slopes of Table Mountain, over rolling hills and valleys - in rich, deep soils formed from eroded granite. Because of the rich soils and gentle terrain, most of this ecosystem has been destroyed to make way for vineyards, wealthy suburbs and commercial pine plantations. In fact, the largest patches of exposed granite soils are at Newlands, Wynberg Hill and Constantia, and these are all areas that have been developed for housing, farmed, or planted with invasive pine trees." We climb on this stuff above-no wonder TMNP doesn't want us bolting there!

The point I am making is we need to know what we are dealing with, before we can make statements about the management of it.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:34 am 
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.


Last edited by wja on Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 2:50 pm 
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Justin,

I am not so sure that an EMP is not required for activities taking place on private land. I am no expert, but as far as I am aware the environmental legislation in terms of which EMP's are required is applicable throughout the Republic. Any activity which qualifies as a listed activity (i.e. an activity that requires approval from the relevant environmental authority, which in the Western Cape is the DEADP) requires an EMP.

As far as I understand (again, I am no expert) the reason for a bouldering EMP on the Peninsula is that the landowner (namely the State) does not want to allow the activity without it. It would however have been a requirement whoever the landowner was. That said, the fact that the landowner consents to the activity does not mean that the environmental legislation can be disregarded. On the contrary, anyone can inform the environmental authorities who could then put a stop to the activity if it is illegal.

Logic, perhaps there are legal avenues to explore here?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:01 pm 
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friend1.0 wrote:
Justin,

...

Logic, perhaps there are legal avenues to explore here?


but then Logic has to stop climbing in his the area too...

I think for an EMP the activity needs to listed. I'm not sure if bouldering is a listed activity. I would assume that the EMP is required for Topside, Redhill etc. as those area all fall within a national park if I'm not mistaken.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Hi Mark,

I think you're right in that bouldering (as an activity in itself) would not require an EIA. However, the question of whether an activity requires an emp/eia depends on, amongst other things, the footprint of the activity. If one or two people boulder in a 100 square kilometer area every odd weekend, the footprint is negligible, and this would certainly not require authorization. However, if 100 people descend on a 1 square kilometer area over one weekend, the impact on that area would be huge. Such an activity may very well require authorization.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:34 pm 
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friend1.0 wrote:
Hi Mark,

I think you're right in that bouldering (as an activity in itself) would not require an EIA. However, the question of whether an activity requires an emp/eia depends on, amongst other things, the footprint of the activity. If one or two people boulder in a 100 square kilometer area every odd weekend, the footprint is negligible, and this would certainly not require authorization. However, if 100 people descend on a 1 square kilometer area over one weekend, the impact on that area would be huge. Such an activity may very well require authorization.


Perhaps you could follow up and let us know at what point (i.e. numbers of climbers Vs available footprint) the activity requires an EIA...
Wouldn't the Roc Rally, The Rory etc all then require EIA's?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:55 pm 
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I'll look into it, although I would have thought that this is the organizer's responsibility?

Don't know about the Rory, but the Boven rally probably wouldn't need an eia because there are already well established footpaths and the bases of the routes are already used - i.e. the impact on existing vegetation is limited. The type of vegetation at Boven is also, as far I know, mostly grasslands with some indigenous forest, which is potentially (I am speculating) not as sensitive to being trampled. Furthermore, bouldering is inherently more invasive than sport climbing as far as the impact on vegetation is concerned.

The "secret area", by contrast (and this would require investigation, as I don't know where it is), would be relatively virgin as far as impact on vegetation is concerned. The vegetation would probably be indigenous fynbos, which might be protected.

It would seem to me that this would all depend on the specific facts. I am not in a position to provide further comment as I do not know where the area is. A good person to speak to would be Andrea Thomas of the DEADP (tel no. 021 483 2790). Ms Thomas is the assistant director for environmental compliance in the Boland.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:28 pm 
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Uumm...try not to ask too many questions to the "assistant director for environmental compliance in the Boland". If the government even suspects fun is being had, they will put complete stop to it(bouldering in RL). Don't open this door.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:50 pm 
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You bring gawwemint into this, next thing we'll have lawyers, liability, access shut down, waiting for EMPs and EIAs and whatever acronymns and all that. I beg of you, unless your aim is to entirely fuck up the little freedom we climbers still have in this country, leave them out of this. Please. Pretty please with tears in my eyes. Don't be the doos who calls the cops to crash the party because he had to study.


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