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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:56 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:52 am
Posts: 73
Location: Cape Town
Hell Yeah! What Turtle said!

Let's go CLIMBING! :afro:

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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:44 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:53 pm
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Real Name: Andrew
hann's a dick.. that is all!
go bouldering then everyone is happy


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:58 pm 
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Real Name: OneDog
ok, I think that's far enough now Mr anonymous "andrew87001".

Hann took the trouble to try and get to the bottom of this issue, looking out for everyone's continued access. He apologised for an inappropriate comment, and just asked a very straight forward question since then.

Much like Rachel is doing for your bouldering come to think of it.

If Matt's route jeopardises access for everyone it should be looked at. The authorities don't care how hard he climbs or how nice a person he is.


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:40 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:53 pm
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Real Name: Andrew
how anonymous?? he tone is just aggressive.. unneeded


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:55 am 
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Real Name: OneDog
When you posted you were just "andrew87001" - the Alexander got added. Hann's not the one calling people dicks, you are. Grow up.


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:53 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:53 pm
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Real Name: Andrew
Not sure why it was hidden, I didn't change anything.. Any ways maybe the man isn't one but some of the things said and tone used made him sound like one.. i was just a bit shocked, as i'm new to the community and so far every one i have met have been nothing but friendly, but then on the inter web people are dropping bombs like "everybody who is pro bolting are demographically either young and inexperienced or unintelligent, so I don’t expect them to fully understand." just straight up unpleasant..
so yea hope fully no more.. certainly not from me :thumright


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 9:06 am
Posts: 196
Location: Cape Town
Back to the Subject.
I'm upset because Matt bolted my trad project. Been working it for the last 10 years.
:mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:31 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:45 pm
Posts: 587
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Trad; luxury. It's a longstanding highball boulder project of mine.


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:55 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 566
Real Name: Warren Gans
I tried the line a while back, but frustrated I simply sprayed my name on its base and tried something else. some day, some day....

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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:51 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:44 am
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The MCSA has looked into the matter, and has compiled their finding.

I understand that the MCSA will post a formal response soon.

In view of the finding I would like to apologize to all who had their noses put out of joint by my insistence on this matter.

That said, I have no regrets on insisting that the climbing community should act if there is suspicions of individual acts that could jeopardize access for us all.

@ Matt,
I is regretful that you were fingered in this tread, but please understand that it was not aimed at you personally.
Thank you for the effort you are putting into developing the sport.




Below a list of crags that has been closed in recent years for a variety of reasons:
1) Karbonaaitjies Kraal (Access is still available under special circumstances)
2) Lost Word (Access is closed completely)
3) Boschkloof (Access is closed completely)
4) Surfside, Gordon's bay (All the bolts has been chopped by Dep of Waterworks)
5) Truikies Kraal (Access is open, but was closed for 4 years)
6) Red Hill (Access is currently being negotiated ?)


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:57 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:41 am
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Real Name: OneDog
It does not matter what the outcome is, what matters is that there's no more confusion. Well done!

I honestly don't think you need to apologise, someone should buy you a beer for your time & effort.


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:59 am 
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emile wrote:
buy you a beer


Windhoek, or Jamesons please :mrgreen:


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:06 am 
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Hi everybody

Firstly, thanks to Hann for bringing this to the attention of the MCSA rock climbing subcom. It's true, access has become a growing issue, and the whole climbing community should be working together to keep good relations with the landowners.

From the MCSA's point of view, we have established protocols/ management plans with a number of landowners to help secure continued access for climbers.

With regards to the Peer's Cave issue, the agreement that we negotiated with Table Mountain Nation Park is that the bolting of new routes is allowed at established crags. However, they need to be consulted if somebody wants to open a new crag (the MCSA will help fascilitate this). So... based on that, the Matt's route at Peer's Cave is actually perfectly legal.

With regards to other sport climbing areas, the Montagu Mountain Reserve Committee are
happy for bolting to continue on their property there i.e. Badkloof area. Contact Justin Lawson for more info on this.

However, for the Cederberg Wilderness Area (Rocklands and Truitjieskraal) a permit for bolting a new route is required. Once again, the MCSA will fascilitate this.

Hope that clears things up.

Mark Johnston
For the MCSA Rock Climbing Subcommittee


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:45 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:45 pm
Posts: 587
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Hann wrote:
@ Matt,
I is regretful that you were fingered in this tread, but please understand that it was not aimed at you personally.


:thumleft: I must have missed that bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 8:40 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:15 pm
Posts: 66
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Craig Burden
The main thing to consider here is that the first thing you notice when you enter the cave is not the few tiny bolts, its the montage on Graffiti, ash covering the floor and trash littered all around. I didn't even notice it until a friend pointed it out! The area is already destroyed and you want to persecute someone for putting a few bolts in the rock!! To my knowledge that cave isn't even the Archaeological site! Anyways you cant call a area that was blown up with dynamite a archaeological site, explosions aren't quiet archaeology!

Well that's just my 2 cents!

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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:30 am 
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Craig?
Really?
Did you read this topic?

The MAIN thing to learn here is that your opinion is irrelevant.

You may bolt in certain areas, according to certain conditions, regardless of the graffiti, the litter or the history of the site.

Any other bolting will jeopardize access.
And yes, no matter who you are, if you bolt illegal you will be prosecuted. Even it there is graffiti and a live-in bergie.


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:25 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:57 pm
Posts: 187
Location: East London
Real Name: Garvin Jacobs
@ Hann. I couldn't post any reply to that, for fair of getting personal and name calling. Thanks for saying something.

@ Justin cant you take this topic of the home page and hide it somewhere? I think we're all rather overit.

Garvin


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:29 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:45 pm
Posts: 587
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Admins should be able to lock threads. I agree this one is due.


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:45 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:36 pm
Posts: 91
Real Name: Delaney Carpenter
Hi All

Unfortunately, this topic needs to be reopened.

I ran into Jayson Orton this Saturday while on a mission to clean Graffiti at Peer's Cave and Heritage Western Cape has now heard of the route bolted inside of the main Peer's Cave.

There are rock paintings inside the cave and according to Jayson, this is a heritage site. The sign at the start of the walk-in to Peer's Cave says as much too.

According to the Sport EMP (and all climbing EMP's), no climbing is allowed at heritage and archaeological sites, therefore the bolting inside Peer's Cave is indeed illegal.

Needless to say, I am waiting on feedback from Jayson once he has heard more from HWC and we will probably need to remove the bolts inside Peer's Cave. The graffiti aside, as climbers, we are responsible for assisting the environmental management program that MCSA and SANP have put together for climbing in the peninsula.

I will keep everyone up to date on how this issue progresses but for now, can I ask that all climbers stay out of the main cave at Peer's Cave?

Any questions, please feel free to respond to this thread or email me directly on delaney@rockchicks.co.za.

Thanks so much
Delaney


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:13 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:30 pm
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Real Name: Sheldon Smith
@Delaney

Am I right in saying that the cave was actually blasted and is not a natural cave? I would just like some clarity on that one...

Cheers
Sheldon

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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:18 pm 
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shedlon24 wrote:
@Delaney

Am I right in saying that the cave was actually blasted and is not a natural cave? I would just like some clarity on that one...

Cheers
Sheldon


The cave is a natural cave that shows evidence of habitation of more than 15000 years.

I suggest that everybody read this article to undestand what the fuss of this topic was, and is, about.

http://www.antiquityofman.com/Peers_Cave.html


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 8:23 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:03 am
Posts: 306
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Cuan Lohrentz
Natural cave it is Sheldon :)

My girlfriend is the paleontologist on the WC heritage committee (only joined recently). So if we have issues, I could ask her to raise them at their meetings and perhaps get the "fuller" story.

PM me/etc with stuff we need answered.

Cheers,
Cuan


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:00 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
Posts: 706
Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
Uumm, maybe don't rush to raise anything to the WC heritage committee.


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:03 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:03 am
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Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Cuan Lohrentz
I am not suggesting raising anything about the bolting specifically, just that if any of us have questions or in future need to get hold of them for information/discussions that this would be an easier way :)


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:56 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:36 pm
Posts: 91
Real Name: Delaney Carpenter
Hi All

Let's not do anything about this as yet and especially not climb in the cave.

If anything is to be done, I will notify everyone.

Jayson was asked to go and investigate the cave by the HWC and will provide feedback.

Thanks so much
Delaney


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:44 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:34 pm
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Real Name: Everyday Troll
This is to do with the cleaning of graffiti

Just too understand what's going on here I have a few quiries. I'm heavy into doing bushman painting myself as they the only ones that seem to be appreciated. What I have come to realise is that modern guys use oil or chemically based paint which seems to be frowned apon here in the cape. This modern arTificial paint, when applied too rock, is not seen as art, but rather named graffiti and seems to always attract negative attention. On the other hand slapping natural ground mixtures on the wall seems to attract people from afar. Now what I don't get is why the one is wrong if they both going to stay there for so long? I like things oldschool, so I enjoy using a mid precambrian shale as my base, and a late jerassic mudstone for detail. As I'm using older paint base does this mean I can paint on the left of existing painting or should I go from left to right like western culture has taught us? am I allowed to use brushes and a ladder or are these frownd apon? Lastly, what makes spray cans wrong when bushmen did the same thing? I honestly think the graffiti guys hav a bit more skill and divirsity, so where do they get to paint and store it for 5000years?

Ebert
Some would say...


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:11 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:55 am
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Location: Pretoria
Real Name: Brian Weaver
:pirat: Ebert!

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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:34 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:36 pm
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Real Name: Delaney Carpenter
Hi Ebert

Good graffiti or modern rock art (while still not allowed on a heritage site) can be very attractive and does have its place in our world.

However, the graffiti at Peer's Cave is done with normal wall or road paint, or charcoal and mud, and has been done by children as the graffiti is predominantly something along the lines of "John was here", "Nikki 4 Tyler", "K 4 L" and some other religious paint like "God says all is mine".

If this was a case of good graffiti and art - like the examples we see in Brazil, etc. - and it was not in a heritage site; then an argument could be made.

Generally speaking, defacing of rock in any environment, regardless of the form of defacement, is not allowed. This is why organisations such as Table Mountain National Parks have implemented Environmental Management Programs for all activities that take place in their parks and as rock climbers, it is our responsibility to adhere to these programs as best we can in order to sustain the environment in which we climb in and to remain on good terms with these organisations.

Hope this helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:27 am 
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Posts: 262
Real Name: Henk Grobler
:)

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 Post subject: Re: Illegal bolting
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:29 pm 
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Real Name: Everyday Troll
Well responded, but being a heritage site and all, aren't u stopping "current day heritage" from proceeding and making future heritage a mangled residue, as "cleaning" only leaves scared rock (that will ultimately be scraped on again and again regardless of your hope)?

Im no professional, but cleaning it wont solve your problem, ive seen it happen over and over. The solution lies in your response, get a good artist too make a piece to demotivate scratching. Go look at those good sketched walls in Brazil, it all started with idiots scratching.

ebert nel
just trying to save u some time :alien:


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