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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:12 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:02 pm
Posts: 4
Real Name: Bernie Theron
I must just say : give the gear back, buy a new rope of 180meters, a beer, and a face to face apology.
And ill second you can join any club, il just vote against you in the MSCA..


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
Posts: 1168
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
guys really time to give some slack here. i would also protect my brother if i had to (and he has my back). i do not get this eagerness to hand out life sentences and make final judgments about people's character. sooner or later we all find ourselves in a situation where we need grace. if karma rules the world we're all f#@&$d. the guy is bleeding i'm sure; time to let him heal.

as a drunk 20-year old i stole a case of booze from a friend's 21st b-day bash (jip, i stole from a friend :o ). got caught and made up some ridiculous excuse which everybody knew was a lie. the next day my buddy's dad sat me down, looked me in the eye, told me what i did was wrong BUT also that he knew i was a better person than that, and that he knew i would make him proud. 16-years later we're still in contact and i did make him proud. there is power in grace; judgment kills.


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:11 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:38 pm
Posts: 335
You are all lost, focussing on hating this adolescent, while no one sees or says a thing about the positive stuff, namely Brian Weaver sending a new 30 - Kleptomaniac, a really rad new line, one of our best and steepest! How cool is that!? Stop seeing blood and start seeing the good stuff, damn it I am off there 2moro to try get the 2nd ascent, with my 40 m rope but all the more amped for it. ANdrew


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:30 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:45 pm
Posts: 222
Real Name: Franz Fuls
Maybe best if we stop adding fuel to the fire, and give the guy opportunity to make amends the right way. My gut feel is that he does have a learning curve, and will take Andrew up on his offer.

Hats of to you Andrew!


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:45 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:34 pm
Posts: 456
Real Name: Everyday Troll
Sorry, should have taken Andrews example and just move on. Sorry Hanno.

eT


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:51 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:23 pm
Posts: 35
Real Name: Deon Wessels
I agree with Andrew's point of view on this... Give the guy a break! I'm sure he will feel like a dick forever :oops:

All of us have done some stupid stuff and like mok said, especially when drunk. I know I have...

Let him work in the path for a month of whatever, give him a proper slap, and call it a day :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 6:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 9:31 am
Posts: 115
So much selective morality from so many quarters.


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:37 pm
Posts: 349
Real Name: Jonathan
A few interesting/sad stories - showing that all humans mess up from time to time. Fortunately for most of us our stupid actions don't have serious consequences, but sometimes the results can be quite ugly.

A group of guys had just passed their board exams and were now fully qualified CA's. They were drinking well into the early hours of the morning. The one guy was dared to steal a carton of milk from the milk truck (it was a long time ago), being completely out of it after a night of heavy drinking - he did it without thinking about it. He was caught and charged. He was convicted and given a suspended sentence. Due to getting a criminal record for that, he lost his license as a CA.

A lady was buying clothes, but didn't have the money to buy the one thing she really wanted. While nobody was looking she switched the price tag with something slightly cheaper. The sales attendant noticed the price was wrong and called the manager. She was charged with fraud and convicted, sentenced to a 5 year suspended sentence. Her husband later decided to leave the country, and she couldn't travel abroad due to her criminal record. Her husband divorced her, the court gave him full custody due to her criminal record and she can't visit her children due to her criminal record.

A group of trainee accountants went on a weekend trip to Swaziland. After a night of drinking the one guy climbed a flag pole outside a police station, tore down the flag and trod on it. The entire group was arrested, and a mission of a diplomatic effort was required for them to be released. Fortunately for them the were released uncharged with a "young people do stupid things" kind of reprimand.

My point is this - clearly Andrew is a great guy to be so forgiving. Be happy that no charges have been raised against you and learn from your mistake. No point in beating yourself up about it.

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"There is something fundamentally wrong in treating the Earth as if it were a business in liquidation." Herman E Daly


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:38 pm
Posts: 335
flex, I think you may be referring to my 'stealing' of Dewalds Project ! Did you read my article? One transgression doesn't mean we are doomed..we all make mistakes, all we can do is try to do as little of the wrong stuff as possible, and of course try to do the right thing when we can..which is what we are doing here, its not being selective its just doing our best, no need for high chairs. Anyway, when are we going to see you on rock again or have we lost you to real life? I hope not :(


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:37 pm
Posts: 349
Real Name: Jonathan
mokganjetsi wrote:
btw, legally there can be no prosecution since the gear was abandoned and simply "collected" (or can some legal eagle correct me?).


Ok - I am not a lawyer and haven't studied law past second year, and it was commercial law, not criminal law. But from my understanding of law:

The problem normally arises not only from the initial event, but from the follow up. E.g. a person steals from a company, the primary charge is usually fraud and forgery involved in the cover up above the theft itself - in part because its easier to prove, but also because the cover up usually shows intention in the initial action, or at a minimum the lack of desire to rectify the issue. It's largely why people get charged with racketeering ahead of corruption.

E.g. a bookkeeper takes R100 from petty cash. They then make an invoice for R100 from a fake company and attach a petty cash voucher. They forge the manager's signature on the voucher. The potential charges they would be up for would be:
1) theft of the R100 (as well as a possible civil case for unjustified enrichment, or delict)
2) fraud for representing the fake invoice as a genuine invoice
3) false utterances charge for creating a false invoice
4) tax evasion for the fact they would not have included the R100 in their income tax return (illegal income is still taxable as found in cases such as MP Finance Group CC (in liquidation) v Commissioner for the South African Revenue Service (2007) SCA 71 (RSA))
5) potentially a count of fraud and tax evasion if the forged invoice implied that the fictitious supplier was a VAT vendor
6) forgery of the signature

That's 7 potential criminal charges off 1 action.

My guess would be that a ruling along the lines of "why didn't you own up straight away", but really, no one is on trial here and thus its an irrelevant pointless debate.

Disclaimer: the above does not constitute an opinion or advice. This post was not made by me in any professional capacity and does not constitute a service or goods as defined by the Consumer Protection Act.

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"There is something fundamentally wrong in treating the Earth as if it were a business in liquidation." Herman E Daly


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:57 am 
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Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 9:31 am
Posts: 115
Andrew, I'll chat to you in person.


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 1:39 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:34 pm
Posts: 34
You are on quite a high horse there Warren. You still have not apologised for steeling my cutlery and plate! By your logic I should go to the MCSA and get you chucked out.

Calm down and try being less of a hypocrite.


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:54 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 608
Real Name: Warren Gans
I must confess I first read about this yesterday morning and it caught me in a foul mood, and over reacted a bit accordingly. after reading the original apology to Andrew rather than the Forum reply I understand Andrew actions and commend him for them. I do think some kind of reprimand is in order, however he/they have taken a beating though this process already.

Greg, have you noticed how you no longer get updates about my Facebook activity, have you wondered why? Sorry I lost your R15 plate, I'll buy you a beer some time to cover the cost of it.

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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:24 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
Posts: 3037
Location: Montagu
Real Name: Justin Lawson
Warren G wrote:
Sorry I lost your R15 plate, I'll buy you a beer some time to cover the cost of it.

Will that be with or without interest? :cheese: (is the FB page 'Get Greg's gear back from Warren' still running? :lol:


Hanno, you guys screwed up. Lucky for you the person(s) whose rope and draws you lynched are nice people.

Go put some belay time in with Andrew (talk about his rope perhaps?) and lets all move on - we've all screwed up before.
Have to say that it has been very entertaining and will probably serve as a warning to all newcomers to ZA climbing for years to come!

And next time you find (or lose) gear at the crag, make a post in the Lost and Found Section :pirat:

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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:25 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:45 pm
Posts: 599
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
It's not like he was involved in aything totally nefarious like overgrading or, even worse, undergrading!


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:28 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:34 pm
Posts: 34
Noticed ages ago Warren, and all I can say is thank god. I'll take your promise of a beer and file it away with all the other unfulfilled promises to return my stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:59 pm
Posts: 722
Hahahahahaha handbags out, ladies! Swing!

You lose my plate, I'll show you, unfriended on facebook :cry: oh no, the horror

This is too hilarious :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks ladies.... or are you two grown men FFS?


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 4:56 pm
Posts: 2
I used to climb with Flex, GregB, Andrew P, The Choss Father, and a few others.

I no longer go cragging with them.

The order of the day is incessant bickering, selfishness, violent behaviour, appalling body odour, long-held grudges, spite, malice, vengeance, alcoholism, and a downward spiral of recrimination, self-loathing, schoolyard name-calling, and suggestive comments about each other’s mothers.

They’re all horrible people. One time at the crag I saw the CF punch an old lady in the mouth and steal her custard. Remember those human teeth found at base of Gollum? I think you can guess where they came from...

Nah, I’m kidding! They’re (generally) a great bunch of guys.

Why can't we all just get along? Although this heated topic is highly entertaining, can I suggest everyone chills the hell out?


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:09 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 4:28 pm
Posts: 6
Real Name: Joshua Lassauniere
I met Hanno this weekend.
Before I read this nasty mess but after it happened.

I practically gave him a rope and helmets and a few other things (cash did change hands but it was far from the true value)
I hope he has realized his mistake and come to understand climbers are family.

Josh


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:42 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
Posts: 721
Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
Hanno...you are lucky climbers are generaly a bunch of soft nice guys (pussies). Suggest you don't chop a surf board in half & steal it. That would be a mistake!

Andrew...clearly a new-ish looking 80m rope doesn't matter enough that you need to take it home. Prehaps too consider that an unattended rope is a temptation for others that may lead to their damage. Prehaps too take it home for this reason.


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:17 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
Posts: 3037
Location: Montagu
Real Name: Justin Lawson
Marshall1 wrote:
Hanno...you are lucky climbers are generaly a bunch of soft nice guys (pussies)


Not true! I heard a story once about some guys walking up to Hogsback... When someone noticed that the 'drivers' car was busy being broken into. Not being a pussy, the owner of said car produced a 9 and warned the would be thieves that they best not continue. :thumleft:

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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:47 am 
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Joined: Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:27 pm
Posts: 146
Location: East London
Real Name: Matthew Bekker
Andrew your response and attitude about the whole thing is a true testament of your character as a person and a climber and shows we all make mistakes new or old climbers, so big up on forgiveness!


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:33 pm 
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Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:30 pm
Posts: 19
Real Name: Chris Joubert
Out with my climbing friends having a beer I seriously miss the Days of our lives episode happening on climbZA. Only one post today?! So I decided to do something for which I'll probably have to write an apology later.

But I have to ask what happened to our Everest challenge prices and T-shirts?


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:32 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:22 am
Posts: 108
Have to agree with you on this one Marshall.
Should be a nomination for the Darwin awards in it self: Why would experienced Chosspile climbers, who know the history of Choss' thieves and robbers decide to add to temptation like that?

All good trying to take the high road after your stuff got nicked, but it boggles the mind why you would leave the rope - and I understand the old "but we were projecting" response for the draws, but really, leaving your 80 meter rope was a bit silly, init?

Makes me wonder why the rope was left in the first place.... Photo shoot perhaps?


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:52 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 8:31 am
Posts: 3037
Location: Montagu
Real Name: Justin Lawson
From Facebook, couldn't resist


Attachments:
in-situ_draws.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:16 am
Posts: 96
@ pillick: check out viewtopic.php?f=52532&t=10419


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:48 pm
Posts: 265
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Guy Holwill
Before you start lynching me, I am NOT saying that I agree with or condone stealing in any way.


My how things have changed. The scene was so different when I started climbing in the mid-80s. Climbers had beards and wore those red itchy socks and sport climbing didn't exist. I was 15 when I first met Andrew de Klerk at Elsies Peak. A firend and I had found a piece of gear and asked him what we should do with it. In a very matter of fact way he said that it was ours now and that we could sell it back to the original owner if they really wanted it. Coming from AdK - we simply accepted it as the way things worked.

A while later I found a sticht plate (belay device) that had someone's initials carved into it. I sanded the initials out and used it for years. It just seemed normal back then.

As I said, how things have changed...

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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:11 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:22 am
Posts: 108
@MMO I saw that, hence my response here. Seemed more appropriate


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:22 am
Posts: 108
@MMO By the way, why is a supplier soo interested here? What does MMO stand to gain from a business perspective, to name and shame someone new to the sport who made a mistake. Not good business sense if you ask me.


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 Post subject: Re: My Apology...
PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:38 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:25 pm
Posts: 210
Real Name: Wesley
pillick wrote:
@MMO By the way, why is a supplier soo interested here? What does MMO stand to gain from a business perspective, to name and shame someone new to the sport who made a mistake. Not good business sense if you ask me.


I second that, at best the Darwin Award has lost you one customer.


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