It is currently Thu Jul 31, 2014 10:12 am

All times are UTC + 2 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:38 pm
Posts: 331
just be cool.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:57 pm
Posts: 103
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Richard Halsey
Folks,

We live in a country with more rock than you can point a cheat-stick at.
So if someone has invested time and effort in preparing a new route (sport of trad), and you know about this, then why go jump on it without his/her knowledge before it is open when it will most likely result in bad vibes??
Bad vibes are uncool, and since we have so much awesome rock around there is plenty to do until said new route is opened, or the green light is given to give it a whirl.

Leaving known projects that are actually 'in progress' alone is a simple act of respect and consideration. I would say that maintaining friendships and a community buzzing with passion and psyche for their sport should be more important than hedonistic actions that will invariable corrode these.

I can only speak for myself, but if I have spent hours finding, cleaning and working a new route, then I am usually quite keen to open it. Is this selfish? Maybe, maybe not - it is just the way it is. Likewise, if someone were to barge in a do it first, even though they knew I was looking forward to completing the project cycle, then I would be a bit bleak and deflated. Again, I am not trying to justify my reaction, it is just the way it is. None of us 'own' the rock or have a 'right' to be first, but at the end of the day it is lekker when your mates support and encourage your efforts rather than poach them. Climbing is just a game, and we are the players. I think we collectively have more fun when everyone plays fair.

As with many things in life, it is easy to justify things to suit your own ends or view on the matter. However, if you are about to do something and that little voice inside says: "dude, you are about to be dick" then one probably does not need to intellectualise it further.

_________________
One life, one body. Use them well.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 7:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:34 pm
Posts: 418
Real Name: Everyday Troll
Love how this post has developed:D

Richard we dont all live in capetown:P cant just go pointing sticks at rocks and call them mountains up here, north:P

Ebert Nel
Thanks for the response


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Jan 26, 2014 8:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:07 pm
Posts: 93
Location: western cape
Real Name: Brandon
I thought there was a surprising amount of rock up north. Just have to wave your cheat stick around a bit harder before you spy a line :p


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 8:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:32 pm
Posts: 1166
Location: Cape Town
Real Name: Willem Boshoff
what Richard said

i do not think there's any disagreement as to the assholiness of stealing somebody else's line. the discussion is rather at which point the bolter / finder turns into the donkey by clinging to a route they can't open. a year? 2? i guess it depends on the route, the location & the amount of effort that went into it (think newborn).

unlike the surfing crowd, I find the generally good vibes and ethic of sharing in the climbing community awesome :thumleft:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:45 pm
Posts: 588
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Tristan wrote:
As long as you are clear about the style of your ascent. Pre-placing and "rehearsing" is a tried and trusted style, affectionately known as, "head-pointing". Ultimately up to you, just don't claim you climbed placing, onsight, when you rapped in and placed a piece or seven.


Sounds about right. It's easy to say all gear should be placed on lead to claim a FA, but if the reality is that if you are pushing your limits of ability and if the gear placed in extremis not being in 100% has a real chance of injury or death, then I think having one or two bits preplaced on the FA is probably acceptable. It's then up to repeaters to improve on the ascent ethically, either by going onsight, ground up or placing gear as they go.

And there is plenty of unclimbed rock within a couple of hours of Jhb/Pta it just takes a bit of effort to go out and find it, rather than wait in the wings and swoop in as soon as you hear rumour of anyone else finding anything worthwhile.

There are potential lines at Boven and in the Magalies Kloofs which I spotted some 15 years ago which have yet to be climbed, if I'm reading the latest guidebook right.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 3:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:37 pm
Posts: 341
Real Name: Jonathan Newman
Chris F wrote:
Sounds about right. It's easy to say all gear should be placed on lead to claim a FA, but if the reality is that if you are pushing your limits of ability and if the gear placed in extremis not being in 100% has a real chance of injury or death, then I think having one or two bits preplaced on the FA is probably acceptable. It's then up to repeaters to improve on the ascent ethically, either by going onsight, ground up or placing gear as they go.


But where is the line between that and claiming a first ascent on top rope?

I agree that whatever you do, you should make full disclosure.

_________________
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jan 27, 2014 4:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 05, 2005 5:39 pm
Posts: 304
Location: JHB
Forket wrote:

I got one more question.

When sending a traditional route, I believe gear should be placed, whats the general opinion on this?
I believe gear should be placed on a send otherwise you doing a sport route. It could also then be argued that placing draws on a sport line is the same equivalent but it just doesn't seem the same.



In the same vein, then sport routes should be done placing the draws on lead?

_________________
Open hand, open mind...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 10:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:34 pm
Posts: 418
Real Name: Everyday Troll
Just like with this line(BB Alex Bester and Ebert Nel), All my projects are open. If you can get to the chains before I can, I'll gladly accept that I bolted the AWESOME line you did:) This is because, I'm more interested in seeing new lines going up, then taking them all for myself. On that note, if you have a cool project lying around, don't let it lie around unclimbed for a year, I'm not gonna waste my airtime if you haven't bothered climbing it for a year. When your bolts go into the rock, you no longer own them. You enter them into our climbing community of South Africa.

As for traditional lines, same principle follows. This post was started because I saw Hector and Andrews route. You guys have been working it on off for some time and I respect that you guys are trying. If you leave it again, please notify the rest of us, scavengers, as the line looks so cool! I will gladly try it:D

My views toward traditional lines, place gear or you're doing a sport line. If the majority of the gear is placed on a send, even if you clip a stuck piece of gear, a pitton or A bolt, then I believe its a trad send. If you open lines with preplaced gear, our morals/ethics are different.

Lastly, there are a few places where people have bolted a single bolt, showing an IP of a route. I personally don't think you deserve to bolt the line if you leave that bolt hanging alone for a year. I'll however leave it for the year or start encouraging you to do it:)


IN the photo:

Falco Filotto doing a dyno that we believe is way harder (31/8a+) and might not be repeated in many years. A case of beer for the person to repeat FLIGHT SIMULATOR 1st is up for grabs and thank you MCSA for kindly sponsoring the bolts for Narrow Kloof. This kloof contains a lot of hard lines, but still has the potential for about 10-15 easier lines on the opposing face. If you an avid bolter, go check it out. If you think you strong, I still have 2 open projects in Narrow kloof that need names:)

Ebert Nel
this opening new lines game we play is about mutual respect and after that it's about growing the climbing community.


Attachments:
IMG-20140127-WA0002.jpg
IMG-20140127-WA0002.jpg [ 127.83 KiB | Viewed 430 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:21 am
Posts: 262
Real Name: Henk Grobler
Arjan stole a problem and appropriately called it "Skobbejak".

Piracy is theft of intellectual property.

_________________
You may still be here tomorrow, but your dreams may not. Cat Stevens


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
Posts: 706
Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
Found a piece of tat on a project I gaffed this weekend. If you can tell me what colour it is an where the project was, I'll happily return it to you.

Forket, I agree with your jungle rules, but returning the tat is important.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:35 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:35 pm
Posts: 76
regarding pre-placed gear:

As tristan said just be honest about what you have done but i would hope that climbers strive for the best style possible. I try to onsight placing gear on routes that are within a certain grade. But I have no issue with dogging routes on lead or checking out moves and gear on toprope for things that are too hard for me or they are first ascents. For red points I always place as much gear on lead as is possible or practical and make sure to place crucial or crux gear.

Another interesting topic is about permanent gear left on trad routes after they have been opened, such as a wire that has been hammered into a crack. I appreciate gear left to rap off a route or gear that will prevent a likely injury but very often the route can be climbed without the fixed gear. In these situations permanent gear annoys me and I wish it wasn't there. Should the first ascentionist remove fixed gear that he used or take it out once he has opened the climb? If you come along and climb an established route with fixed gear that you deem unnecessary, do you have the right to remove it?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 3:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 3:04 am
Posts: 174
Location: Pretoria
Real Name: Dirk Talma
Hmm, what's the difference between a bolt and a nut that you hammer in which then becomes fixed gear?

Just a thought


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jan 28, 2014 7:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 9:13 pm
Posts: 82
Great stuff! This should best be discussed at a pub over a few beers!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:16 pm
Posts: 81
When I still studied in Grahamstown I went climbing a few times with Keith James and the boys from his school. Anyway, we were at a new-ish crag and there was a nice looking easy line with a piece of string tied trough the first bolt. One of the boys asked him what it means. And I think he gave a very nice reply. "It means if you climb it, you don't tell everyone else about it".
I think in that situation it is quite fair, obviously the crags in the Eastern Cape see less traffic than the ones in the rest of the country, and the climbers in the EC have less spots where they can climb (so according to me different rules apply). I have never bolted a sport-climbing line, and I will never open a trad route, and when I do go climbing my favorite part of the day is when I sit in my hammock and nibble on cookies, so take the following opinion with a pinch of salt. Most people really want other people to know that they climbed something really hard. That is why the 8a.nu website exists. And people who discovered a nice line and started bolting it (same goes for people who saw a nice trad project and took the effort to clean it and so on...) they also want credit for their effort. So if you really really REALLY must climb that route Ebert (because like you said it looks really awesome to you and you feel drawn to overhanging routes) then maybe the most "ethical" thing would be to climb it in such a way that no one (except your belayer) would ever know.

But of course like you already know because everyone else already said it in some way or the other, the more sociable thing to do would be to coax the guy who is working it into spending the weekend with you and trying it together. Cause (for me) climbing is a social activity as well.

Actually I think the climbers in SA still has very good ethics and are very lucky in a sense to be able to bolt and discover lines. I cant imagine that anyone would give a second thought to anyone else's private project in a place like Arco unless the route is really really hard. If it is below a 30 then 10 people would go up that line before the weekend is over.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:16 pm
Posts: 81
And if anyone wonders...no one actually attempted to climb the IP route to which I referred earlier ...just so you know ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:45 pm
Posts: 588
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Ansie wrote:
Actually I think the climbers in SA still has very good ethics and are very lucky in a sense to be able to bolt and discover lines


It's not like unclimbed rock is at a premium. It's more that it takes a bit of effort to actually find a new line and clean / bolt and climb it. And some people are just too bloody lazy and would rather leech off other people's hard work than make an effort themselves.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 47 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC + 2 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], SNORT


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group