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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 11:01 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:48 am
Posts: 615
Real Name: Warren Gans
So we all agree that a club house should:
Be a place people want to hang out at
Be practically located
Be a good social venue (for your demographic)
Open at reasonable hours
Offer great training facilities

Greg the UKZN gym operates much like how you describe, but I disagree with you on the alcohol simply because the vast majority of climbers don't take the sport as seriously as you, but rather see it as a recreation/relaxation time. Clearly these two conflict, but if the bar is only opened on say Tuesday and Thursdays from 7:30 then there is enough time to either avoid that crowd (of your friends who will be trying to coax you in), or to train before the bar opens.

I am waiting for someone to point out that MCSA moving its current HQ is a ridiculously expensive idea, and that changing it internally to fit our needs would be better. I agree with all this, but wouldn't it be great if it had the same broad set up as Wonder Wall, where the main floor as the hall area, surrounded by lead walls and boulder cave and a bar area over looking all of that, with the office below? Bespoke, but man that is cool.

I have come to wonder if the social aspect of climbing is not a more regional thing, where Capies simply don't like socializing nearly as much as the rest of the country. When I was in Durban we would get kicked out the club pub by security at 10pm, then we'd head up to Firkin (a crowd of over a dozen was normal). On a Sunday we would all meet at a centrally located parking lot (which coincidentally was the local pub), decide where we were going and because everyone started from the same parking we would be a big crowd at the bar after. Everyone was climbing 23+, and about a handful climbing over 30. My closest friends were made like this, and the start of all of that was a good training facility and amiable place to hang out.

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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2014 2:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:21 pm
Posts: 279
Joburg Section meet in a girl guides hall, so I doubt anyone will suggest modifying that - the only vaguely interesting thing is the crack running over the stage...besides anyone on government land is in a bad place and won't spend money on the property...

So an anonymous sponsor needs to donate millions or a piece of land or both...(is that it in a nutshell?)
and then the nameless millions will flock to it...the same people who cannot be bothered to attend 4 meets...try and forgive the cynicism...

Your observation that a commercial climbing gym may well be the right venue is probably right on. Then the club doesn't need to run a shop or a gym but can be a part of things there, meeting there and even having events there. This is most likely the ideal scenario...

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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:25 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:43 pm
Posts: 28
Location: Mpumalanga Secunda
Real Name: Raymond Gates
When will the final decision be made concerning the new joining procedure?


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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:29 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:21 pm
Posts: 279
Reading what most people have said on the forum - I may be paraphrasing- but most do not see the attending 4 meets as a major obstacle - besides if you ever climb with an MCSA member it is classed as a meet - so the new joining system is a moot point then isn't it! Besides the advantages of joining online are dubious, notwithstanding who currently uses this method. Applying online sounds like a good idea though...

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Last edited by Old Smelly on Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:30 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
Posts: 723
Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
It is quite a procedure to change the joining-procedure. Each section has its own constitution & bylaws. These would have to be changed. Most likely it could only happen at a section's general meeting (AGM or Special). Full democracy for members.

I can't see this change in the EP Section. It hasn't even been mooted, much less discussed or proposed. There is nobody pushing in that direction. Fairly sure most sections would be similar. I did 6 meets to join as a country-member, all climbing & all with my mates. I recommend going on meets. Meets are fun. Meets are core, this is what the club is about.

The reality is; we don't have fancy buildings/facilities, money for managers, can't any time soon change laws of the country & its members fall short in all sorts of human ways.


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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 8:57 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:21 pm
Posts: 279
I like what Marshall said, it makes sense and was very non confrontational.

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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:55 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:43 pm
Posts: 28
Location: Mpumalanga Secunda
Real Name: Raymond Gates
The one reason that I would like it if they made joining easier is that if you live on the outskirts of Mpumalanga it’s just not that easy to join the meets or even make it to the club house. I have tried contacting the MCSA via Email and received no response. I am definitely not saying that membership should be given away to every other person, and I do agree with the fact that if you are a member you should bring your part but what I am saying is that what if the only part that I will definitely be able to is a financial contribution. Let’s say I only get to the mountains maybe 4 times year does this mean that it is not possible for me to join a organisation like MCSA. Thanks for the good work that the MCSA is doing but please make it a bit easier for someone who does not live within 100km of MSCA section to join.


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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 12:25 pm 
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Location: Waterval Boven
Warren G wrote:
So we all agree that ...

In your dreams, Warren :jocolor:

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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:13 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:21 pm
Posts: 279
Rock Ray I think you are misreading the situation. The Joburg MCSA will make a plan for you if it's difficult - I have heard of several similar tales. Why don't you phone them (011) 807 1310 or even try again on the email - it may have been the wrong address you tried. You could even try getting hold of Neil or someone like that.

You should be fine as long as you don't say I sent you...

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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 4:39 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:40 am
Posts: 783
Location: Stellenbosch
Real Name: Nic Le Maitre
Warren G wrote:
So we all agree that a club house should:
Be a place people want to hang out at
Be practically located
Be a good social venue (for your demographic)
Open at reasonable hours
Offer great training facilities


I think that there is some confusion here... The MCSA is a club for people who like being outdoors, which includes climbers and every other outdoor enthusiast. Climbers are a (very) small part of the membership of the MCSA. If we turned it into a club for climbers we'd alienate all the other members who have never ever been climbing. If we want to grow the membership of the MCSA we'd be better off trying to persuade the trail runners/other hiking clubs because there are far more runners/hikers than climbers.

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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 7:58 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:21 pm
Posts: 279
Just for clarity there are two points that need to be picked up from that;

1. Should the MCSA be the body that represents all other outdoor sports or stick to what is loosely classed as "Mountaineering" and involves hikers, walkers, boulderers, rock climbers of all types and then mountaineers?

2. Given the above is the current goal to draw in all those sport climbers who are not currently members and can it do this whilst not alienating all the hikers?

In Joburg there is the Joburg Hiking club which caters for all the sort of day tripper and "soft" hikes - forgive my propensity to insult everyone simultaneously -I draw only a little joy from it- so they take the bulk of "intro" hikers into their fold. I am neither saying this is good or bad but in essence they are more of a social crowd. Having said that the hiking fraternity in the MCSA in Joburg is a strong group of hikers.

Would a climbing wall alienate them? Maybe if most of the clubs funds went that way then yes that is possible.

So what is the best possible option? For the club house to be based somewhere where a gear shop and climbing wall are run as a commercial venture - then none of the funds of the club are diverted to these "commercial" activities and you still get to enjoy the "togetherness" and vibe. I do not see the hikers being too put out by that.

The way I see that is what the Joburg commitee should work towards - you saw my references to fees before and clearly this idea is workable without massive fee changes. The sport climbers too will draw the advantage that their fess go to access and bolts and not to a gym that others use.

I think Nic's point is so relevant - we need to keep looking at what the club is for and addressing the needs of all its members and the community as a whole.

Hardly one insult in that whole post - I must be going soft :puker:

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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 3:39 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:56 pm
Posts: 173
As I mentioned several posts back, this issue was examined, VERY THOROUGHLY, 15 or more years ago. Much of what is being said now, was argued then. Clubs, by their very nature, attract like-minded people, sharing a common interest. The MCSA already caters for a very broad spectrum and often can't serve certain segments to their complete satisfaction. If the UK finds a need for 250+ clubs, perhaps there is room here in SA for quite a few more clubs, all affiliated to a purely administrative body along the lines of the BMC? (As far as I recall though, the BMC receives govt. funding?) If the MCSA, the Ramblers, CUM hikers, each university club, the Scout Mountain Club, plus the numerous non-club-minded mountain enthusiasts out there all belonged to one central admin body, collectively we will have a lot more clout when it comes to negotiating access, activity cards, and funding, but each club will still retain its own unique character, quirks, secret handshakes and tradition. I don't think any one club should be taking on that admin role, but how to go about creating our own Mountaineering Council is the question...


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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:40 am
Posts: 783
Location: Stellenbosch
Real Name: Nic Le Maitre
Richard wrote:
I don't think any one club should be taking on that admin role, but how to go about creating our own Mountaineering Council is the question...


At last! That's the way. Richard for President of the SA Mountaineering Council

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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:38 pm
Posts: 834
Real Name: Greg Hart
Nic Le Maitre wrote:
...Climbers are a (very) small part of the membership of the MCSA...


Ummmmm, this IS a climbing website tho...


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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:07 pm 
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Real Name: Greg Hart
Richard wrote:
...I don't think any one club should be taking on that admin role, but how to go about creating our own Mountaineering Council is the question...


Excellent point.

[Slightly aside:-] Ive been told by many MCSA peeps that the MCSA is THE representative body for climbers in SA. Unfortunately for them that is just complete bollocks. What percentage of SA climbers even belong to the club? - I don't for one. TMNP and CN may want accountability for our actions in 'their' parks/reserves but the MCSA isn't actually in a position to police/control our activities effectively. A national council might have more clout with government etc. but it could never claim to represent or account for all climbers. I would caution against pretending to be 'in control' of climbers (we are a wild bunch), the best a governing body can hope for is to put out propaganda as to how it believes climbers should act and hope they follow the example.

{Slinks silently out the back door, drill and bolt bag in hand, a sly smirk twisting his lips...}


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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:10 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:38 am
Posts: 723
Location: Port Elizabeth
Real Name: Derek Marshall
Hey Greg, isn't that supposed to read
{Slinks silently back to the couch, beer and remote in hand, a long sip wetting his lips...}

Is there another representative body for climbers in SA? So then The MCSA is THE closest thing we have to a representative body for climbers in SA. The MCSA is a club, we can't police, control or represent all of our members, much less all climbers. All we can do is try. Our members are just humans, not a mystical force.

Sancf basically represents kids & indoor comps.


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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:19 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:38 pm
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Real Name: Greg Hart
Where's the like button. Marshall my man!

[ - Actually did get off the couch briefly this week and allowed my poor soft body to be publicly flogged at the crag and gym - must have made a scary sight!]


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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:54 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 1:21 pm
Posts: 279
That's done then: Brian will be MCSA President and Richard President of the Mountaineering Council

And who said forum debates don't result in real outcomes!

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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:31 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:56 pm
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Arrange that Presidential government salary and I am there.


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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:55 am
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Location: Pretoria
Real Name: Brian Weaver
Ditto!!! Then I can retire and live my life as a climbing bum / millionaire!

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 Post subject: Re: MCSA Vision
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 6:14 pm 
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