Demi Maillon on Harness

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IdratherBeCimbing
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Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by IdratherBeCimbing » Mon May 22, 2017 9:16 am

So Im hoping someone can give me some insight here as google proved a bit useless. so I joined search and rescue and noticed a few guys had put demi maillons onto there harness for their cows tails , now considering I use my harness for both climbing and rescue this idea appealed to me it meant I wouldnt have to retie my cows tail all the time it also provides the attachment point for my chest ascender to my harness .All I would have to do is merely unscrew the maillon remove the cows tail and my harness would be ready for climbing again and vice versa , I have been opting to leave the maillon on my harness through my tie in loops as I figured that way I wouldnt loose it . However yesterday someone said to me that this is dangerous and can damagae/reduce the life of ones harness (by almost half) as you are not loading the loops correctly. Does anyone have any knowledge regarding this or suggestions I obviously don't want to damage my harness as I use it quite often and would prefer to keep doing so for the forseeable future without any incident.

PeterHS
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by PeterHS » Mon May 22, 2017 10:38 am

Interesting and I am sure someone from the SAR community will respond. I am not technically qualified to do so but it could be easiest just to get a cheaper or second hand second harness. One for climbing, one for rescue. That means your rescue pack can be at the ready too without having to switch gear. Just my R1 worth. Ciao. Peter

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Mon May 22, 2017 11:09 am

Harnesses are made from webbing and the beauty of webbing is that its strength is not directional with respect to loading because it can bend. Putting a demi-maillon through the tie-in loops of your harness ("parallel" with your belay loop) is fine and loads your harness in the same way that it would be loaded by a rope.

As long as the maillon has no sharp edges and/or burrs it won't damage the harness at all. Even better than a maillon would be one of the open-able rigging rings like the Petzl Ring Open since it is symmetrical and smooth.
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Justin
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Justin » Mon May 22, 2017 12:15 pm

Nic Le Maitre wrote:Harnesses are made from webbing and the beauty of webbing is that its strength is not directional with respect to loading because it can bend.
Agree with Nic.
To add, the only type of metal you want to place where your belay loop runs is a specific type of maillon. There are folks out there who are of the opinion that a carabiner in place of your belay loop is a good idea (stronger).
It is not.
If you don't trust your harness's belay loop: Replace the belay loop, back it up (with another piece of webbing) or get a new harness. FYI The Belay loop is the strongest part on your harness.

One of the problems you get with a biner in the place of belay loop is side loading (there are also other nasty/dangerous 'things' that can occur). If side loading occurs then the strength of your carabiner is brought down to less than 50% (normally in the region of around 7KN (+-700KG's).

See also: Harness Belay loop thread
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IdratherBeCimbing
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by IdratherBeCimbing » Mon May 22, 2017 12:33 pm

Thank You all for your replies it helped allot , @Peter considering both activities resulted in me spending allot of time in my harness I opted to avoid buying a cheap and possibly uncomfortable harness and the maillon was a much cheaper easier solution . @Nic that was my initial thought regarding the matter but just wanted to get others opinion to put my mind at rest , I hadn't previously seen those Petzl Ring Open but will do some research into them ,thanks . and @Justin I was very aware that putting a caribiner in there was not an option due to cross loading , Hence why a Demi Maillon was what my question was centred around as it is what was recommended and what id been using, it was only after someone outside of rescue whose knowledge and general input I hold with high regard made a comment about it did I sit back and question its safety aspects and ultimately decide to put the question forward to put my mind at ease. Thank you all for your input its much appreciated.

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Justin
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Justin » Mon May 22, 2017 1:07 pm

IdratherBeCimbing wrote:@Justin I was very aware that putting a caribiner in there was not an option due to cross loading...
That wasn't for you :thumleft:
It was for others and those that are thinking about doing it (common logic dictates that iron is stronger that webbing).
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PeterHS
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by PeterHS » Mon May 22, 2017 1:50 pm

I am reading with interest too as I use one harness for climbing and for rescue. I too use a demi-maillon to attach my cow's tails to my harness.

Does anyone know who sells the Petzl Ring and for how much? I have just looked on the MMO site and can't seem to see it there.

Ciao,

Peter

Old Smelly
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Old Smelly » Mon May 22, 2017 2:37 pm

I cannot think that having a Demi Rond through the Top and Bottom loops stops the functioning of the harness as it normally functions - nor would it force you to belay from the Demi Rond - you can still belay from your belay loop as long as you can get the Demi Rond out the way.

The main problem with people who put Carabiners through their Leg Loop attachment and Waist loop attachment is that they are 3 point loading a carabiner that is not designed for 3 point loads.

So if you use a Demi Rond then it will not load incorrectly or cross load and I would see it in fact as much better than using a lark's foot for attaching your slings - the Demi Rond is designed for this purpose and will retain it's full strength whereas a lark's foot attachment will lose about 30% of the slings rated strength.

It looks like the right device for you is an OMNI with an Auto lock

https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Carab ... draws/OMNI

It is interesting that the Lark's foot thing is quite contentious and everyone is looking for stats. See below.

http://adriannelhams.blogspot.co.za/201 ... ngths.html

Of course using a lark's foot for your cleaning tethers is very different from using it to attach any form of tethers that could take some serious loading or shock forces , but I always think one should just use the best possible solution one can find so I think the Omni is the best bet in your case (and you could remove it easily if you wanted.)
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Tue May 23, 2017 9:59 am

Damn it Old Smelly, stop agreeing with me, I came here for an argument!

Personally, I'd prefer the Demi-Maillon to the OMNI autolocker, simply because you can tighten the maillon with a spanner or a pair of pliers and have zero chance of it opening, whereas the OMNI, spring-loading notwithstanding, there is a (remote) possibility of a combination of snagging and movements that could result in either loading of the gate or it being opened accidentally. IMO either is suitable but the maillon is safer.

The Ring Open is better still, equally strong in all directions and snag-free. You can buy them from High Angle in Imam Haroon Road (used to be Landsdown Road). Or if you ask Eiger Equipment, they'll get one for you. I'm going to get one as soon as I have a chance to visit a shop.
Happy climbing
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IdratherBeCimbing
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by IdratherBeCimbing » Tue May 23, 2017 11:31 am

Justin wrote:
IdratherBeCimbing wrote:@Justin I was very aware that putting a caribiner in there was not an option due to cross loading...
That wasn't for you :thumleft:
It was for others and those that are thinking about doing it (common logic dictates that iron is stronger that webbing).
Sorry Justin my ego totally got the better of me there, Thank you all for your responses and knowledgeable insight it is much appreciated 8)

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Tue May 23, 2017 11:51 am

Justin wrote:700KN (+-700KG's).
Ummmm 1kN = 1000N = 100kg (roughly)
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Justin
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Justin » Tue May 23, 2017 12:06 pm

:oops: :oops:
Thank you for the correction Nic (I will edit my post above).
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Old Smelly
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Old Smelly » Tue May 23, 2017 12:12 pm

Good points Nic - and certainly for a permanent piece on your harness a Maillon will do well - I think an aluminium one is best though...

The reason I mentioned the Omni was that you could use a removable but auto locking one - which may suite this scenario better...

Doubtless though if that ring is permanently fitted it should be out the way enough to not affect anything else
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

Trevor
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Trevor » Tue May 23, 2017 12:22 pm

I have a petzl falcon designated for rescue only. I have also put a demi rond mailon for my lanyards. I have replaced the dynamic rope lanyard (offcut of climbing rope) with a pre sewn rated lanyard that is rated, I am sure with is will work well
Do what is within the manufacturer's specifications and all will be great. As nic says as long as there ar no burrs or sharp edges on the metal connector it should not have an effect on the webbing
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Don
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Don » Tue May 23, 2017 6:49 pm

Is someone going to write a thesis about this now?

PeterHS
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by PeterHS » Tue May 23, 2017 6:59 pm

Don't know. I think the thesis was handed in long ago. P

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Justin
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Justin » Tue May 23, 2017 7:29 pm

Thesis!? I'm sure one has been done already.
However, I am of the opinion that having 2 separate harnesses is the way to go.
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Warren G
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Warren G » Tue May 23, 2017 7:46 pm

First rule of Mountain Rescue: Tell everyone you are on Mountain Rescue (shirts, patches, hats and large stickers for all 6 sides of your car available for those "of good service").
Second rule: wear as much clutter on your harness as possible. Why bring one thing when two will do? Ensure that the clutter is so specifically MR related that even beginners know you are a member, this way they feel safer at the beginner crags you hang out at. Which is great, because with all the rescue practice and Real Mountain Rescues you lead you actually have no time to climb at the level your ego says you do.

Sorry to take a tangent, but I felt after 16 posts about how to attach a short piece of rope to a harness it was important to remind the Mountain Rescue Members about their rules of conduct.
Sandbagging is a dirty game

hendriks
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by hendriks » Tue May 23, 2017 9:08 pm

Something something....remember your prussiks...something something...also know how to use them.

That aside, I challenge you to show me one example of someone in rescue who is running around boasting as much as how you pretend to be a hardass on a public Internet forum.

In fact, I will go as far as saying next time I run into you I invite you to elaborate on your massive amount of knowledge on the topic. Oh wait, maybe I shouldn't let you showcase your ignorance or lack of judgement(character) in such a public manner...or maybe I should.

Ball is in your court, just remember it might not go the way you intend, much like on your seemingly regular "epics/clusterf#cks" hardman

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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Warren G » Tue May 23, 2017 9:14 pm

:thumleft:

Sorry if my post was read in any other way than good humour: I have huge respect for what rescue do.

Hendriks: lets go for a climb one day soon- assuming you live in Stellies? I can see you have taken offence to things I have said in the past, and it would be great to share a rope with you and discuss these topics. Its so easy to get a warped perception about people by reading what they have to say online, rather than spending time with them. My number is owe eight 3 too six for nyne owe six for. My Rack, your ropes?

For the record I open the invite above to anyone on this forum that has never spent much time with me, but has an opinion on me, Nic le Maitre, you too are most welcome to contact me privately, I have sent you both Facebook requests in advance.
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Old Smelly
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Old Smelly » Wed May 24, 2017 11:14 am

I thought Warren G was someone who hangs with Snoop Dog...

Anyhow - as to the thesis thing - part of the use of the forum is for someone - like Peter - who often does - to raise something that is either a questionable practice, a bad habit or something that people differ over on a regular basis.

Admittedly some of these things are red herrings, others are easily solved, and some result in a healthy debate where one can assess what is said and make your own choices.

To some these things look like nit picking - the "everything is rated at 2,5 tons and you can do nothing wrong crowd" - and we certainly hope you are right as this may keep you alive.

Then there are those who are looking for simplicity or efficiency and they often clash with the "better safe than sorry" and redundancy crowd. These often argue to the point of right or wrong but in the end you make your choices and live or die with them.

And then there is a case like this where someone is looking for a particular optimal solution - and it seems that there was some concurrence there.

It's all quite simple really - you don't want to follow the debate or care what someone sees as the ultimate solution - then don't read it!
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Wed May 24, 2017 11:37 am

Hi Warren

I had posted, but then deleted, a very sarcastic response to your post, as I felt it really wasn't in keeping with the way I try to interact with people on this forum. It's incredibly difficult to infer tone, body language, facial expression or any of the other clues we use in normal conversation when all we have is flat text. In future, perhaps a "/jk" or a :lol: would help us to understand when you are joking versus when you have decided to belittle an entire group of people who volunteer their time, energy, money and effort in order to help those in need simply because they don't climb hard, or don't climb enough, by your standards.

It was quite difficult to discern the difference there.

I try quite hard to provide polite, friendly and hopefully, helpful responses to questions on this forum on topics about which I have some knowledge gained either through study, experimentation or experience and try as far as possible to play the ball and not the man. I thoroughly enjoy debating topics and am willing to change my opinion if presented with logical, evidence-based arguments. In general I then really enjoy my interactions on this forum (and others). A positive attitude and approach works wonders I find. On topics where I have no knowledge I ask, and/or do my research if pointed in the right direction and this forum is great for that.

When someone comments on a thread, purely to annoy the other users, troll, or to demonstrate their "superiority", that is not particularly useful, helpful or encouraging for the kind of debate that I enjoy. Nor is it encouraging for anyone else reading the threads either, at least that's my opinion. If you cannot conduct a civil conversation with people on the internet then thanks for the offer, but no thanks, I have plenty of people to go climbing with.

Regards
Nic
Happy climbing
Nic

Don
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Don » Wed May 24, 2017 12:27 pm

It's a maillon.

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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by PeterHS » Wed May 24, 2017 12:40 pm

Thanks to all of the above.

We contribute because we care and that's right. We have differing opinions based of different experiences and different attitudes to risk - and that's right too. Thankfully, we are a broad church and there is strength in diversity. There is rarely if ever a 1-size-fits-all situation or conclusion. The different views and opinions help me find my own position.

Back to the OP, I am intrigued by the Petzl Ring. I believe it needs an allen key to open to close. The chances of me losing the key or leaving it at home are probably high. I get the circular, omni-directional bit but I just wonder if ever I needed to remove or swap it if I would have an allen key handy to do so. Also, does anyone know how the strength of the Petzl Ring compares with a maillon (stell or other)?

Ciao,

Peter

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Wed May 24, 2017 1:03 pm

23kN in all directions.

I have a separate harness for rescue and for climbing so it doesn't bother me that I'd need an allen key to remove it since I don't take my cow's tail off my rescue harness. Also allen keys are cheap and light, just drop one in a pocket of your bag and forget about it.
Happy climbing
Nic

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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Grey25 » Thu May 25, 2017 10:25 am

The good thing with the maillon is it can be loaded parallel to the belay loop as stated above, It works really well with chest ascenders but one must remember to tighten the maillon before loading it, ideally with a spanner, but pliers will do. Aluminium maillon is rated to 25kn when pulled length ways and the steel is 45kn - both more than the 15kn your harness belay loop is rated to.

The Petzl open ring works well in theory - its gate in 11mm wide and works well getting the cows tail on and off. Its rated to 23kn in any direction making it strong enough but as stated above needs an allen key to open it. Losing that allen key means you can't undo it if needed whereas the maillon can be undone with different tools. The ring must be tightened correctly as the spacer can slip out if not tightened properly.

I've seen all three of these items at City Rock JHB

Good Luck with the rescue training :thumleft:

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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Old Smelly » Thu May 25, 2017 11:02 am

Cool contribution Grey!

I do think you will find that it's actually easier to carry a small Allen key over a 17 or 19 spanner so that for me is not a very logical thing to do - unless of course you are carrying the 17 to tighten bolts anyway...

The ring can be and will adjust to loading in any direction and will take various loads in different directions at the same time- pretty much the same as the Demi Maillon.

Besides I don't want to freak Nic out with agreeing him too much! It seems there may even be opportunity for the statistical chance that others can be right too - though of course in my case I find it unlikely...

So yes I think Nic's ring does TRUMP the Maillon in practical terms - my opinion of course...
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

Jasoneye
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Re: Demi Maillon on Harness

Post by Jasoneye » Thu May 25, 2017 4:39 pm

Seeing as though Warren was spotted at a recent mcsa s&r training session in the Western cape. One can only assume his negative statements were being directed at the KZN team!

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