top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

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mokganjetsi
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top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by mokganjetsi » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:33 pm

i need some advice please on starting to implement some fixes on the top anchors of a few sport routes. the ones i specifically have in mind are at hellfire (flintstone, scorched earth, wastelands, and in time a few others), but i have seen the same "problem" at legoland (bon giorno bambina). so, here's the issue: the top anchor is two ring bolts (of the type shown below) configured around 15cm apart and directly next to each other (see 2nd picture)
ring bolt.jpg
ring bolt.jpg (63.11 KiB) Viewed 2136 times
climbing top anchor glue-ins.png
climbing top anchor glue-ins.png (195.13 KiB) Viewed 2136 times
the problem is two-fold: the loading on the anchors is increased due to the 90-degree angle the rope runs through them (not equalizing but actually having a reverse effect) and people sometimes lower-off / toprope through them, resulting in wear & ropes coiling like crazy. what I'd like to do is simply add a mailon & 3 or 4 links of chain (all hardware store purchased) to lengthen the anchor point so that bolts are equally loaded and the rope does not run through corners.
anchor.jpg
anchor.jpg (115.94 KiB) Viewed 2136 times
the questions: are hardware store mailons & sections of 10mm chain appropriate? my thinking is that it will actually improve safety. I found this report with a rather dim view om hardware store carabiners, but noting that they still held multiple's of 100kgs and when there's two equalised surely the redundancy will be sufficient? (noting that I intend to use mailons; not carabiners)

http://www.climbing.co.za/2013/05/lab-t ... -stations/

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Wed Jun 08, 2016 12:55 pm

mokganjetsi wrote:the problem is two-fold: the loading on the anchors is increased due to the 90-degree angle the rope runs through them (not equalizing but actually having a reverse effect)
This is true but, it is still well within the strength envelope of the bolts. 90 angle makes for 1.41x the load, 80kg climber, 80 x 1.41 = 113kgs. Negligible in the greater scheme of things.
mokganjetsi wrote:and people sometimes lower-off / toprope through them, resulting in wear & ropes coiling like crazy.
No pills for stupid
mokganjetsi wrote:what I'd like to do is simply add a mailon & 3 or 4 links of chain (all hardware store purchased) to lengthen the anchor point so that bolts are equally loaded and the rope does not run through corners.
Why not add a maillon and an abseil ring? That way the wear is distributed around the ring, rather than on a single point
Happy climbing
Nic

Old Smelly
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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by Old Smelly » Wed Jun 08, 2016 2:31 pm

Try and make sure that they are all the same material...so if the bolts are stainless then so should the maillons and rings be...
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

mokganjetsi
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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by mokganjetsi » Wed Jun 08, 2016 3:45 pm

Nic Le Maitre wrote:Why not add a maillon and an abseil ring? That way the wear is distributed around the ring, rather than on a single point
yup agree its better, but the chain is cheap and heard-wearing. you can replace it every few years at low cost if necessary. thanks for the other comments :thumleft:

BAbycoat
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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by BAbycoat » Wed Jun 08, 2016 6:23 pm

Dude! keep the hardware in the garage. If it's not made for climbing, don't use it for climbing.

In addition, consider galvanic corrosion. Your "improvements" could end up compromising the bolts - and then somebody has to come along and rebolt the anchors. (See Smelly's contribution). Or the chains rust, and block the rings (I've posted an example of this on a previous thread).

If you still insist on changing the geometry of the anchors, consider 10mm or 12mm SS (not galvanized!) chain links attached to the ring bolts with tape - because the tape won't conduct, and because it can be removed easily.

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Forket
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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by Forket » Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:04 pm

MCSA JHB sportclimbing division bolts with one rated fixe anchor and a hardware store one. This is done to save costs and is apparently not frowned upon by the experienced climbers of Gauteng as ive not seen anyone complain.

My beta: Dont place the chains exactly equalized (in a straight line at the same height). In my experience this causes ropes to twist (curl). I put my anchors 0.5cm offset to solve the problem. Anchors screwed in by nuts with this problem can be fixed by rotating the one anchor slightly to offset the set fixing the coiling problem.

If you fixing anchors, dont replace with completely hardware store gear, replace to stay safe. Or offset one to fix the problem.

peace
eT

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XMod
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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by XMod » Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:30 pm

I was one of the guys who put the routes in at Hellfire. Ihave to say that almost all of the suggestions posted here are rubbish.

The first pic: These eyebolts do need to be replaced at some stage but not by any of the means mentioned here! They need to be, and will be, replaced by proper ARF glue in anchors in due course. Please note that none of the eyebolt anchors have ever failed.

Pic 2: The bolts pictured are glued in anchors made from chromolly steel. They are absolutely bombproof and DO NOT need replacing! The steel is also incredibly hard wearing and laughs at ppl lowering off through the rings.

Over and above all of this there is no climbing plan in place with CapeNature as yet and bolting there is still illegal. PLEASE DO NOT jeopardise years of negotiation with CapeNature by going out there and replacing servicable equipment with hardware junk!

I will get in touch with those ppl involved in the eccess negotiation and see where thibgs are at.

Old Smelly
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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by Old Smelly » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:01 am

I must second Ebert's point! A really good idea regarding the Galvanic corrosion is to isolate it! I little plastic tube or tape between the materials can make dissimilar materials work together - provided it does not wear away.

Otherwise just make sure the chains are the less noble item and then they will rust and not the bolt (this is influenced by surface area as well but in this case it would be ok). I have seen this work quite well even if it was inadvertent - the chains rust away and the bolt and hanger stay ok. Not great in terms of length of life but at least the bolt is not the affected item.

Best case match the ring bolt and the chain material (or maillon material) - that way you won't need to replace the bolt in a long time - especially if they are glue ins!
Really, its not that bad...I think it's my shoes...

mokganjetsi
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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by mokganjetsi » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:30 am

XMod wrote:The first pic: These eyebolts do need to be replaced at some stage but not by any of the means mentioned here! They need to be, and will be, replaced by proper ARF glue in anchors in due course. Please note that none of the eyebolt anchors have ever failed.
i'm not talking about replacing the eyebolts; just adding a length of chain to reduce the problems of loading, wear & rope coiling
XMod wrote:Pic 2: The bolts pictured are glued in anchors made from chromolly steel. They are absolutely bombproof and DO NOT need replacing! The steel is also incredibly hard wearing and laughs at ppl lowering off through the rings.
i used the pic just as an example of the configuration of the eyebolts; nothing more
XMod wrote:Over and above all of this there is no climbing plan in place with CapeNature as yet and bolting there is still illegal.
as clarified above, there is no intention to place new bolts / replace existing ones; only to look for ways to extend the safety & lifespan of existing ones (given the glacial pace at which negotiations typically go with state services it should really support my intention).
BAbycoat wrote:Dude! keep the hardware in the garage. If it's not made for climbing, don't use it for climbing.
i have been on many sport routes with normal looking chains as lower-offs - not sure if its stainless steel or galvanised though (for instance the chains on the much climbed Flakes at lower sivermine are rather thin and have a rusty surface; but i'm not sure what material they're made of). the intention is obviously to maintain or enhance safety, so thanks for the warnings! I did not even know about galvanic corrosion.
Old Smelly wrote:Otherwise just make sure the chains are the less noble item and then they will rust and not the bolt
how do you make it "the less noble item"? no idea what you mean; can you please explain.

thanks for the input guys! Will get approval from one of the Hellfire developers before we actually do anything :thumleft:

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Nic Le Maitre
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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by Nic Le Maitre » Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:43 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_series

The higher up the list the less likely to rust, the lower, the more likely to rust. If x is lower than y then it is less "noble", more likely to rust given the conditions.
Happy climbing
Nic

BAbycoat
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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by BAbycoat » Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:45 pm

Expanding on Nic's point ... it's not just that X (continuing his example) is more likely to rust than Y. It's that, when connected, X will rust on behalf of Y - i.e. double-time (or faster).

Here's a prime example of how hardware chains block the existing bolts, and look decidedly suspect.
GalvanicChains.jpg
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XMod
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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by XMod » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:13 pm

Yes metals must be matched in terms of purity as well as into 'families' of alloys. The alloy with the most available electrons will corrode the fastest. Aluminium and Stainless steel is a prime example of a disasterous combination of alloys, near the sea the aluminium will crrode away in an extremely short span. NEVER trust leaver biners on routes!

Replacing equipment at Hellfire, if required, can be done prior to the climbing plans implementation BUT only with proper permission organised through the correct channels. Placing low quality chains is NOT the answer. They are not required and damage the rock face

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XMod
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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by XMod » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:17 pm

If you come across anchors or bolts that NEED replacing at Hellfire or anywhere else please alert the ARF so that they can be replaced with proper quality equipment

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NatureBoi
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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by NatureBoi » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:23 am

Forket wrote:MCSA JHB sportclimbing division bolts with one rated fixe anchor and a hardware store one. This is done to save costs and is apparently not frowned upon by the experienced climbers of Gauteng as ive not seen anyone complain.

My beta: Dont place the chains exactly equalized (in a straight line at the same height). In my experience this causes ropes to twist (curl). I put my anchors offset to solve the problem. Anchors screwed in by nuts with this problem can be fixed by rotating the one anchor slightly to offset the set fixing the coiling problem.

If you fixing anchors, dont replace with completely hardware store gear, replace to stay safe. Or offset one to fix the problem.

peace
eT
Like below?
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hh4m
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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by hh4m » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:47 am

There are so many things wrong with that anchor, I don't know what gauteng climbers were thinking!!

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NatureBoi
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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by NatureBoi » Fri Jun 10, 2016 7:49 am

mokganjetsi wrote:
XMod wrote:The first pic: These eyebolts do need to be replaced at some stage but not by any of the means mentioned here! They need to be, and will be, replaced by proper ARF glue in anchors in due course. Please note that none of the eyebolt anchors have ever failed.
i'm not talking about replacing the eyebolts; just adding a length of chain to reduce the problems of loading, wear & rope coiling

Hi Willem,
I would just leave it. I think we will be creating more problems and more to manage.
Like Nic said the loading is negligible. When was the last time you heard of lower-off's failing?
If you are compelled to do something, Installing one glue-in lower-off with double rings would be the best long term investment. You could position it offset from the horizontal and then use either of the old lower-off's as the backup.
My services are available if required.
Cheers
Cormac

mokganjetsi
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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by mokganjetsi » Fri Jun 10, 2016 9:55 am

thanks for all the feedback guys - learned a lot :idea:

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Re: top anchor fixing & hardware store gear

Post by XMod » Fri Jun 10, 2016 1:44 pm

Thanks Cormac, for contributing to this. The eyes in the first pic do need to be replaced, more because they cause more wear on the rope than desirable than anything else. However some of the eyes are stacked on top of nuts where the bolt was not placed deeply enough, one has two nuts under the eye - not optimal at all. Perhaps an ARF meet at Hellfire to address this? Will be in touch next week after I have spoken with Douw re management plan.

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