What's your stance? Screwgate or clipgate?

[Nic Le Maitre]

This is pointless...it's like you guys are illiterate...or just being obtuse....

Insults do not help your position

NO Mok - "Less weight and less clutter" - I have already made the point that there is little weight saving and that therefore this argument is weak. And yes that means you would need to carry enough biners for your stances but you would have to anyway - so DUH! - no argument there.

Unless you replace every biner on every piece of gear with a locker, you are going to be carrying around 6 extra lockers (3 for the one stance and 3 for the next) to use when you get to the stance, unless you know beforehand which gear you will use on the stance, and that adds up.

So you don't use lockers - also no point - the argument was what should a beginner do - and YES if he is asking then he wants to know what is best. So no argument there. Same for you Hector - you take your own risks - but that is irrelevant to this discussion.

We are not arguing our method is best, we are arguing that it is acceptably safe.

Nic - the point was that if you slide a clove hitch on to a snapgate at the gate and crossload it, it will most likely open at that point - try it!

That may be possible but you quoted my response to your assertion that a screwgate is significantly stronger in cross loading than a clipgate and then proceeded to criticize it on the grounds that the gate will be forced open by the clove which is not the same thing at all

As for the random argument that then we must all use steel auto lockers - see my previous point about the comparison being between aluminium snapgates and aluminium lockers - a matter of grammes - nothing else was posed - so your point is totally off the mark and absurd. As is the argument that all climbing must either carry the same risk or you must not bother at all.

Our point is about absolutism: you continue to assert that your method is the best way because you reduce a minor risk to a negligible risk at the stance; when there are far greater risks elsewhere that you appear to do nothing to address (e.g. the rope coming out of a piece of gear placed on lead during a fall). Therefore your "best" way is not the best way, because there are ways to improve it and make it safer that you are not using. If you want to advocate yours as the best way, you have to go all the way to the ludicrous end of the spectrum.

[mokganjetsi]

NO Mok - "Less weight and less clutter" - I have already made the point that there is little weight saving and that therefore this argument is weak. And yes that means you would need to carry enough biners for your stances but you would have to anyway - so DUH! - no argument there.

i think nic covered it, but for what it's worth: i rack my cams on a clip-biner each; nuts on two clip-biners (big & small); i then have 4 to 6 slings with a single clip-biner and 8 alpine draws (all with clip-biners). the cams i place on the stance i simply tie in to the biner that's already there; and if there's a nut i use an alpine draw - all part of the rack. if i go with locking-gates i will need to add 6 screw-gates to my rack.

i do think this discussion does not really add more value - OS, you're right, using lockers is safer. we just say we think clip-biners is safe enough, provided you know what you're doing.

as with all things there is a pay-off: the amount & type of gear you carry; the thickness & rating of your ropes; the number of pieces you place on a stance; the type of biners you use; the type of slings you use - all this plays off against weight,time & effort. find the balance that is acceptably safe & works for you.

[hendriks]

It is all really simple. Know your gear, understand the limitations and risks of various configurations you use it in and then build the appropriate system for the scenario.

If you are belaying of a bollard the size of the Maltese cross you are probably not going to back it up with two more points same as where you won't belay of a single micro nut if you can avoid it. Never any hard and fast rules for climbing, just guidelines and recommendations on gear use with many solutions all within an acceptable level of risk(varies with the incumbent).
Sometimes you have to build a stance with the only two pieces of gear you have left and a regular biner. If the rule says you may only stance with 3 points each with a locking biner all on a equalised cord with another locker what now?

My typical stance: 3 solid points, sling to one, half rope clove hitch to each other piece and all three to either bfk or harness, second sling to any piece and flake rope over this(makes it a lekker manageable pakkie), belay from bfk or harness depending on setup (I should really get a reverso...). Locking biner on bfk if I build one, locking biner on belay device, normal biners everywhere else.

Your setup Old Smelly?

[Old Smelly]

For those who don't like screwgates;

Grivel Double Gate.jpg

or even

black_diamond_magnetron_carabiner.jpg

and for those who would like to have more secure placements en-route to their stances;

doublesnap.jpg

There you go guys!

[Old Smelly]

Exactly Hendriks - what where we discussing? - not what to do in the case where you need to get creative but what you intend doing on your normal stances - so carry the right number of lockers to do your normal stances - but as I have already observed you would need to anyway whether they were snapgates or lockers (with only a few grams of difference) because if you didn't plan that then you would arrive there with nothing - so no argument there - YOU NEED TO CARRY THEM AND THEY MAY AS WELL BE LOCKERS.

So yes - it would not matter what your three points are- most times you would need a carabiner for them and those may as well be lockers (see previous references to little weight difference and EGO's - hopefully neither are the guiding force for most trad climbers.)

I am sure that my original references to guides and their practices is pertinent - they would carry enough gear for 2 stances - whether they used a cordelette or slings and enough locking carabiners to create the stances and leave them in place - not including the masterpoint one. Now you can cobble together any system you like - your choice, your life, your stance -BUT if asked what is best? the answer should not be "whatever I can come up with at the time"

Maybe consider the pretty alternatives I posted if you REALLY HATE locking carabiners so much- otherwise just accept that modern lockers can weigh almost the same as snapgates and that planning a few for the stance could be an option.

[Old Smelly]

My apologies to Mok for continuing the discussion - your comments made absolute sense!

[Nic Le Maitre]

Oooooooh Magnetrons are amazing! They are without a doubt the best locking carabiners that I have ever used. If you want to get a climber an awesome present, Magnetron!

Those double gate things are a pain in the ass and really don't offer much additional safety when compared to the alternatives.

Look OS, we really are not trying to argue that our way is best, we are saying that it is acceptably safe and normal practice (as in everyone I have every tradded with in the >10 years I have been tradding).

If you can give me one single example where using clipgates on a stance lead to the stance failing I will instantly convert to the screwgate religion.

If you want to insist that your way is the "best" way then you need to address other safety concerns beyond clipgates on the stance, otherwise it is only a "slightly, perhaps even only marginally better" way but certainly not the "best" way.

If it makes you feel better, in rescue we use 30kN screwgates everywhere and some times even 50kN triple action autolockers. We don't even use clipgates to hold rope protectors in place.

[mokganjetsi]

My apologies to Mok for continuing the discussion

continue by all means! i just meant i do not add any more value

[Old Smelly]

Nice Nic - I suspect it would appear there are very few acolytes for the "all locking carabiner religion" and even less money to be made from it...

[Nic Le Maitre]

Now if you made it the all Magnetron religion and gave a free one to everyone who joined, I'd be there in a flash!

[PeterHS]

Thanks to all for the ongoing discussions. They are always useful and informative. It is great to read a range of views from those more experienced than me. It seems much depends on theory or practice to inform. Theory will usually be better BUT .... We live in a real world where we must make practical decisions. Also, there are usually and inevitably situations or scenarios where theory even can contradict due to inconsistency.

I'm off the buy one of those magnetron biners soon (thanks Nic) ... maybe, two - for belaying and abseiling. My Petzl ball lock is ok but not so easy for a left-hander like me than for a right-hander.

Keep the comments coming ....

Peter

[Old Smelly]

I am sure you meant 4 Magnetron biners for all the points on your stance....

or is it 8?

I hope I get commission from RAM

[PeterHS]

I wish sometimes (Justin) there was a 'like' or 'don't like' button here ......