crime at the crags.

[Morne]

Its realy sad to see more and more cases of attacks on climbers,hikers etc.It seems like we are losing our freedom to some of the crags!
Think of all the routes thats been developed at some of the crags thats know not being climbed just couse theres a possibility of u being robbed,raped and who knows what else.We need to get together to prevent these bastards from taking over.Lets not just sit back and hope it never happens to us.I'm not being negative but just a realist.
One of my suggestions is that if possible we get the local community involved.Example one of the places in the ec where we go climbing
called pinnacle the farmers will question anybody that they think could be dodgy or dont recognize from the community.If they have no bussiness
there they will be chased.I bet u a lot of housebreakins could be prevented if u aproach that dodgy looking guy sitting on the pavement(obviously with caution)in your street and ask him what he's doing.If his got no bussines
then ask him to leave or round up some people with big sticks.If the farmers find somebody breaking in or if there is ever a case of a attack on a local or a climber i can assure u the attacker will wish they'd called the police.Thats why it never happens.Till today pinnacle is very safe couse word gets out there.The other suggestion is obviously dont take any chances.Otherwords dont try and be texas ranger.Rather prevent stuff from happening.I find some people act blind to the crime problem especially tourists hikers,climbers etc.If u roadtripping first find out the situation from the locals of the crag.If u can hire some snipers to go cragging with u all the better.Maybe a permit system would also help keep them dodgy,s away.
Any other suggestions would also help.
Lets work together on this as much as possible.
We have a right to be safe.

[Derek Marshall]

With Your big hands... I don't think you need to worry. Jus klap em...

morne, your comments are juvinile. Puh-leeez!!! ja, I'm going to hire some snipers for my next 'boven trip. And next time I get mugged, I'm going to fight back, against two armed men with 9mm's. With some crags there are so many access points that it's impossible to man the entire area. There is no way we can stand together and fight this. Look at the MCSA meet at Baviaanspoort the other day. They hired guards and went in a big group, and even then they had abandon it due to threats. Morne', it's better to just keep your inane ideas to yourself rather than opening up another forum can of worms. This topic has been discussed to death and really, it's just f*cking boring reading your naive bs. The only solution is for the government to realise the potential of tourism in these areas and to station army patrols who can then guard these places. It's not up to gun ho idiots to make a stand. I pay my taxes and I expect my government to protect me. If they dont, then its better to leave. If this was happening in the US I can tell you they'd have the army out patrolling daily, and the 'perps' would get the sh*t beaten out of them, thrown into jail and the crime would stop. Just read the post about the Elandskrans muggings. Some a-hole made a comment about how they were all meeting up to address this with government officials, what happened, just another all talk no action, just like our countries politics. Morne', rather just keep your big hands to yourself and try keeping them out of your pants for just one day.

[Magnus]

Guest, if you think it’s immature to stand your ground and take no crap from some hooligans, then you must be one grown-up citizen. The EC is probably the poorest and most desperate region in the country, but its also full of a lot of really immature climbers. I would be afraid if I wasn’t as immature myself.

[Ja Ja]

Ja the government should protect us. Ja we should have free education, water & electricity. And I want my free house.

Fuck it Guest...do you see any of this actuly hapening. Your expectations are imature & juvinile. Its not going to happen any time soon. Best you start making a plan for yourslf in SA or be off to the US.

[Pol Pot]

Guest, why don't you pack your bags and head off to the states where there is absolutely no crime, I mean 0% crime rate !

Sounds much better than South Africa hey, and while you are there please as GW Bush to send in the cavalry and help protect South Africa... perhaps 3 weeks of air raids might help ? Or even better, why not just have a chat to Mr. Mbeki and ask him to change our constitution, our policing policies and just get a Gestapo or KGB type force in place and we can all live happily in a communist South Africa, pity old Pol Pot is dead, or, now this is the best solution I can think of..... lets just bring back Apartheid!

or you could stop your bitching, be proactive and create some positive chi for yourself and those around you............VIVA Rainbow Nation.
With that said, only one more thing to say:

Guest you are a knob

[Derek Marshall]

Here Here, I agree with Pol Pot. Lets send guest to the US -- maybe they will send him out to Iraq \"patrolling daily, and the 'perps' would get the sh*t beaten out of them, thrown into jail and the crime would stop.\"

Fact is that climbing is almost no benefit to the economy in SA. Most climbers are cheap asses who cut costs at every turn. Most cash spent on climbing, is on gear, gear is imported, thus cash leaves SA. There are just so few of us in SA. Not more than 3000 regular climbers spread over the whole country. The government has bigger issues to fry. Rightly so.

[morne]

Cant believe guest was the fastest sperm cell!!!
I suppose you will alway's get people who sit back and do nothing except run other peoples idea's down.At least there are enough proactive people in this country to make a difference where they can.Its ok guest you carry on sitting back scratching your butt couse u obviousely have no balls.Do me a favour guest and dont breath to deep cause your wasting oxygen.Maybe u can fall pregnant so the goverment can give u a grant so you can keep sitting on your arse(hope your kids dont get the same attitude as you).
A bit of a sence of humour will cost u nothing unless u want the goverment to organize u one of those to.
You are not completely useless couse i'm sure somebody out there can still use u for testing instead of our precious animals.
Some people make me sick!!!

such hostility, aaah, the white male south africans. always quick to launch an attack. Obviously we all know eff all will get done 'bout the crime.

Morne', when you've put down the braai tongs and your rugby ball, I'd like to just discuss with you the actual feasablity of having snipers at the crags [sounds US?], or that fact that your screening process of 'going up to anyone YOU think may look dodgy' might just be a little unfair?[sounds US?] Let me guess, it's proactive to instill fear in people who are desperate[sounds US?]. My post was only to highlight the ape ideas which you saw fit as the 'solution' to our crime whims.

BTW-your permit idea is as good as our border post idea. Agression is NOT the key. Most of you who've posted here, I have read other comments from, condoning this idea that taking guns to the crag is a good idea. Using your fists to solve a complex problem like poverty driven crime?!! ha ha!!!!!!! I spit on you all.

[Derek Marshall]

Guest...you are a racist f*** wit.

[roy_katburg]

My thoughts on beating crime on the crags etc. is one of education.EDUCATE THE GOVERNMENT!
Although I now live in the U.K. I was fortunate to have lived in S.A.for a good number of years. Its time you south africans woke up to the fact that if you didnt go about robbing raping and mugging each other for a couple of hundred rand.your tourism and leisure industry would supply all of you with a good standard of living and fill the government coffers with tax revenue, to improve the social infrastructure, and thus further reduce crime. You have beautiful countryside-free, and sunshine-free,big game-free! there are millions of ordinary people,(not just the super wealthy), too scared to spend there money in South Africa just because most of you think that 'the government should do something'.do it yourselves morons.

ye roy, it's easy to sit 10 000k's away and say \"Its time you south africans woke up to the fact that if you didnt go about robbing raping and mugging each other for a couple of hundred rand\".

Do WHAT ourselves? you fu*king MORON...

bru, take your so called first world safety net off and smell the roses buddy. Do what ourselves??? Tell you what guy, why dont you write a nice little list for us.

[Pol Pot]

roy, I do agree with you on the point of education, more money and time needs to be spent on the overall education of the entire nation, however, certain growth devices need to be put in place too, otherwise we will just end up with even smarter crims.

Unfortunately, the socio-economic makeup of SA is in a poor state, even the educated are finding it hard to find work. A place like Boven will not have it's problems solved with a little education. The rebuilding of the socio-economic structure of Boven needs to be addressed. But how? This is a question I put forward to the residents, business people and the local authority of Boven.

It is true what was said about climbers budgeting on trips and yes, they do not spend too much money, but hey, they still generate an income(even if it may be a small one) for the people who provide a service, and those that work for them.

What concerns me with a place like Boven, is the fact that a certain resort will not comment on this issue or even address the problem by upping security within the resort. We pay them a fee so we can pitch a tent and have a relaxing weekend away from the troubles of a city, only to be held up, have gear and other valuables stolen and worry about the safety of the ladies in the party. I will be boycotting the Elandskraans resort and giving my business to Roc & Rope and the likes.

Okay, in their defense, what can they do ? Up the security, make it more visible, have more people patrolling ? This could work, though who do they employ, the guy living in a shack that is surrounded by the same crims that target us ? But then again, perhaps the employment of ten more security guards may mean ten less crims.......


All in all, the solution is not clear-cut, as the problem is at a root level and complex. Personally I take my hat off to those that do meet and discuss the problem. At least they are doing something. But now they need to implement. I would suggest a multi-leveled plan, one that is structured to address the 'most in your face' problems in the short term but at the same time begin to identify, target and tackle the underlying problems that the community, tourists and the service providers face. The most important thing is to set up the plan, have set dates for targets and 'do' something instead of talking about it .

These problems are not going to be solved in the short term and it will take many years of restructuring and then a dedicated team to keep up the work for future years.

I personally refuse to give up on Boven or any other area that I may hike, climb or just sit around at. We as South Africans must pull together and be proactive about these things. Without teamwork from the local authorities, service providers, the community and the tourists(us), these problems wont go away. They will only get worse !

I myself will be talking to a few people about setting up a fund/donation that will operate on an on going basis and could be used for things like the upgrading of the local clinic or schools etc. Does anyone know if anything like this has taken place in Boven ? Has it worked ? Where did it go wrong ? Anyone with a simmilar idea ?

Peace


oh and in response to :

Its time you south africans woke up to the fact that if you didnt go about robbing raping and mugging each other for a couple of hundred rand

have you got a quick-fix solution to poverty, hunger & strife roy ? If so, let me in on your secret and we can become millionaires and fix the world at the same time !

Be safe and enjoy every moment, after all we live in Africa and you never know when its your last

Africa is not for sissy's

[Pol Pot]

ps... and that goes for all crags, beaches wilderness areas in SA.... make the difference and pitch in a little

Pitch in and do what??? talk talk talk...and Derek, I was taught never to argue with idiots. Whatever you say Derek. Hey Derek, whatever you say hey Derek Marshall, hey Derek, u twat.

[Pol Pot]

No-name-brand, You are a twat yourself. If you can see no way that you can contribute or help then you are one sad person.

Things will only begin to change and get better when the majority of people in this country take the responsibility to help change things themselves. No matter how small a part we do, it is important that we do try do something as an individual and as part of the community.

and no-name-brand, if you feel that it is not up to you to try and better the situation then you just best stay away from areas that are affected and go become a plastic climber..... and I would appreciate it too..... less arseholes @ the crag

[morne]

Ok guest so u say that u realise that theres a crime problem at some of our crags.U also say in your first post that talking to government officials was all talk and no action and seems pointless.I hope u realise that the government is not stationing armed patrols at all our crags and even though they are aware of the problem there are still attacks happening.
U also say that theres no chance of us standing together to help the problem.U say we can do nothing to try and prevent it.U do realise we not a first world country.
Maybe a drunk person will make more sence out of guest.
Do you even make it to the crag or do you throw your arms up before u get there.
U have done nothing but try to drain the possitive energy of people that are willing to try.You basically saying we should just give up.You have not had one realistic possitive suggestion on this topic.
Can u please take your negative attitude and go drain somebody elses topic.
Cant we all chip in for a one way ticket for guest so he can also be 10 000km away.We Need more people like Pol pot and not like guest(no name).

[Hope]

Guest cant be a twat cause a twat has more purpose in life.

[Guy]

Oh gosh, look how brave you all are writing anonymous posts on an internet forum. Grow up.

I've never climbed in the EC - so I can't comment specifically. However, I have been to Boven and maybe \"you\" (the people who climb there) could try something like this:

You have a problem - crime. I guess it's pretty obvious where the criminals live in Boven. That area has many problems - poverty, lack of facilities, crime etc. How about meeting with the community leaders and seeing whether you can do something to help them, in return for them doing something to help you? I suggest offering to help upgrade facilities in return for them handing criminals over to the police. This sounds idealistic - it is much better than taking guns to the crags, because the criminals will simply bring more/bigger guns and then everyone will die!

The reality is the YOU need to address the problem - not become part of it. Being part of the solution means that you will actually have to do something.

morne', when you've parked your Raider, perhaps you should have a look at your initial post. Aaaah, so much positive energy oozes from it. The snipers, the KKK style 'getting together', the fear...I must say though dear morne',it was funny trying to decifer your glorious last post. I see words, and when I try and read them, it makes no senSe! Perhaps you should place aside your Lion lager before trying to type. If you would like to pay for a 10 000 k trip for me, I'd be most happy to accept. Travelling is such an important part of learning and growing. thanks ever so much. I'll plant a tree to make up for the oxygen I'm wasting. How positive is that?

[Hope]

Guest nobody expects you to make sense of much.
You more annoying then spam.
Cant somebody get you banned from this post.

[Justin]

I agree with Guy, address the problems at root level to find a resolution. Otherwise we might as well vote a few climbers into government to fix the entire country.

[DBez]

Tsk..tsk , great forum topic guys !
Very interesting , just a pity some of us are so much filled with writing bravado ! May the one that has been in such a situation before come out and reply what he thinks about it . Its a different situation , hence the need for people to work together and try to eliminate the bad odours that society has created . Yes , society because we all want our gear , clothes , snazzy cellphone or whatsoever and so does your stick up men . However for him work may not consist and lots of them aren't really that interested in it either , its the rule of the fast living . Show off what you got and tomorrow is another day .
Yes , the EC don't have come upon such a problem yet (forbid!) but that do not mean it will never happen . If I had a chance I will also like to climb at Boven , never mind the danger . Never going to help hitting your kin from the same cause and groan from the side . And guest....blah , blah , blah...carry on !

[morne]

guest I dont expect u to make sense of much.
I'm not gunna waist any more time reading pointless posts from some anonymous twit thats more annoying then spam.
Just do me a favour and stay as far away from the Eastern Cape as possible.

[Sathsyr]

Ja for sure Guest, just stay the f*ck away from the EC crags.No one needs histeric wimps like you. You obviously WANT to be a victim. Shot for all the colourful Afrikaner dissing, I bet Morne's still got his Raider, his tongs and his Lion because he did not just bend over and take it like you obviously would have. Did it hurt Guest?Did they take your stuff?Shame...

[roy_katburg]

Idid not mean to be flippant,you really have no idea how I ache for the success and stability of South Africa.It must be obvious by now that there are no quick fixes available.but just because you can't see the end of the road, doesn't mean you shouldnt start walking.Poverty hunger and despare are not confined to Africa.choose a success model from recent history and follow it. Tourism is the way out, it spreads the money around at all levels, unlike exports which tend to favour the few. The bad guys stuck in poverty should use their local knowlege as guides for foreigners(a naiave view, but potentially feasable).If people are prepared to travel to OZZ andN.Z. from europe, you guys would really clean up, a million rand is small potatoes! take care and good climbing roy K

[Eric de Beer]

Guest, you must be taking the piss….otherwise I pity you, you old prune. Clubber hands see at Pinnacle sooooon. Leave the guns, take a Hilti drill, nail them to the walls

gee morne', looks like you've copied Hope's post directly. That's clever. I feel sorry for any poor soul you end up belaying. Let me guess, all those rugby scrums and fist fights have damaged your brain? Is this why you're such a copy cat cad? instead of only 'waist'ing your time on me, it seems you also 'waist'ed yours in English class.

I like the way that as soon as a person has a say, he/she/it gets shot down. My opinion on Morne's original post was just that, my opinion, and if people cant accept this then rather just STFU!

I really doubt you'd have the pleasure of meeting me in th EC [eeuch!!]. I did a trip there last year and really found it to be over rated. Lots of hype though. Hogsback was just this macho bolted waste of time, one or two cool moves and then junk. Fort Fordyce had some of the cuc'est routes I've ever been on. I'll not mention the rest, but let me tell you I was super happy to end up back in CT climbing on some good stone again.

DBez, are you stoned? your post really makes very little sense...you need to perhaps get hold of some better weed so it doesnt dumb your brain like this.

[Guy]

For those of you with the view that SA is the only country with crime, here is a article from Rock and Ice...


STOP, THIEF!
Break-ins Increase at the Red River Gorge

The Red River Gorge has seen its share of break-ins in the past few years, but recently the number of occurrences has increased. The offenders are ruthless, local climbers say, taking anything of worth and even junk out of cars. They’ve even gone as far as stealing dirty old hiking boots. Car stereos, ropes, sleeping bags, and climbing gear are typically stolen. Jen Vennon, 23, of Knoxville, Tennessee, states that the thieves recently broke into her car at the Motherlode parking area.

“They stole a cooler with two beers and a bag of dog food,” she said. “Who does that?”

...a little different to getting raped with a 9mm pointed at you.