3rd party websites and copyright protected information

[XMod]

Some people have been posting routes on 27 crags and other websites. These websites then want to sell access to the topos. The names of routes, the RD's and all topos published in books such as Ross Suter and Greg Hart's Hellfire are subject to copyright law yet people seem to think they have the right to then publish this information elsewhere.

These overseas based sites have done absolutely nothing to contribute to the local scene, compared to local climbers who have put in countless hours building paths, bolting routes (at large expense), negotiating with landowners/managers for access, and writing guides to the areas for you to enjoy. Why, oh why are you stabbing us in the back by doing this? The money you spend on local guidebooks is fed back into the crag and community. By contrast you will get absolutely NOTHING in return from an overseas website run by people who have never once ever visited the crag.

Just STOP posting stuff on their sites. It is ignorant behaviour that irks me no end. It really makes me feel that is no point to developing routes or writing books about it - books written for YOUR benefit alone. Cut it out please!

[XMod]

And yes I am busy with a new edition to our book. It's looking awesome, full colour throughout, loads of photos and will feature some innovative topo designs. Send me your new route info - not some arb website - thanks.

[Marshall1]

Info (facts) like names, grades, number of bolts & route lengths is not copy rightable. Sure, you can't legally photo copy a guide book, but you can use someone's book info (the facts) for writing another guide. Tweak the wording in the descriptions & opinions. Get your own pics

I still buy hardcopy guides, but they are kak to use. Really kak.
1. You can't zoom in, the print is small & hard to read.
2. You can't search.
3. We prefer scrolling through a guide to paging.
4. Guide books are heavy & single purpose.
5. You can easily forget a guide, but won't leave the house without a phone.
6. Books can't be updated, edited or improved.

Surely the era of hardcopy guides is over. Guides should be online & free.

[XMod]

I agree with some of what you say Derek. We are looking at creating an app that people can simply have on their phone. That would allow zooming in as well as being instantly updateable. I would like the app to have a permit booking page so that booking is simple and instantaneous as too many people are going to the crag without permits. That is a huge problem for land-managers. In the case of Hellfire it means that the Hawequas division of CapeNature do not receive funding, meaning that important projects, such as clearing alien vegetation, don't happen, neither is there any budget for path maintenance. Such a system would need to be linked in to the CapeNature website and as such will take some clever IT work. It is something to work towards for sure. I have produced web friendly PDF's for two smaller crags that were distributed free of charge but those are simple affairs.

I disagree that a guide to a major area should be free - there is simply way too much work that goes into producing it. I cannot justify spending that many hours just for the love of the sport. For now the book will be in print and perhaps in future it can expand to an app, ideally I would like the product to be a bundle of book and app. You still cant beat books for simplicity and ease of use, they never need charging and are always ready-to-go. I promise the typeface will be easy to read and the topos are going to be of a level of detail never seen before with multiple shots of each crag from different angles (mega user friendly) - if not maybe you need some glasses for those old eyes?